When to seperate a pup from the pack ?

[Warner5]

Since I started hunting, I have raised and trained 3 dogs from pups, which I consisered to be finished, lead dog type of dogs. These 3 dogs were all trained from scratch, W/O the help of any other dog. Just me and those dogs through good and bad. Not saying any thing about right or wrong way. Just telling what I have seen with my dogs. John.

[cobalt]

Maybe the difference is that I don't want to own a pack style of dog, so I don't gear towards that. My dogs always have packed together fairly well no matter what method of training I use. I know this because I've seen it a thousand times, If I dump everthing before my young dogs consistantly and repeatedly and at 18 months old, I decide to start the young dog, without any experience that young dog has often not wanted to start the track because they don't know how and they often will go and then come back. that young dog will probably come around, but I try to avoid that issue.
To me the T-ball scenario is not as much of a metaphor of bobcat hunting as say a math team. If veteran team members figure out all the math problems together, the rookies learn little about the whole problem solving process. If a rookie is allowed to figure them out sooner by struggling, he will sooner become a contributing participant. Also, the coach will know at what level the rookie is at whereas he couldn't tell if the other members of the team are solving all the problems.
Both ways work. I have never bought a trained dog in my life. I like to make them myself. I don't raise straight cat dogs. Maybe I would change my program if I did.

[Unreal_tk]

I see what your saying twist but I think ill try my way.

George,

I was meaning your second option, I know nothing about boxing cats but why couldn't you turn that into a positive scenario for the pups if they do take it backwards? With the Garmin GPS you should be able to tell quickly if they are backwards and go turn them yourself and or take a old dog to get back the right way? Even with snow we have do this occasionally because a cat hunts alot in a small area. Now then it may be harder without snow but I don't see it as impossible. And if you do turn them around without a dog they will learn better in my opinion.

I mean no disrespect but I am trying to get new ideas for myself and OTHERS who may not post but read here to learn.

[Tim Pittman]

Cobalt--there is alot of merit to your whole post,I've seen some of the negatives your talking about.It seems it effects some individuals [probably the biggest percentage]more than others,I do tend to gravitate towards the others--being the individuals that almost make it no matter what the circumstances.What I'd be curious about is if any of this[being your philosophy]would make a positive impact on a dog,to where if I say--ran with another hunter and his dogs--my dogs would not be effected so negatively.This last winter I hunted with a good bobcat hunter and his two dogs twice.I noticed some of the good regular traits I see in my dogs on a regular basis and some not so good things that I haven't seen in a couple years out of my lead dog,and a few things I've never seen in the young dogs.Even though we caught cats both times out,I tend to analyze the negatives of what I seeen,do to believing the positives takecare of themselves without having to make them better than what they[positive traits]are.Good post have enjoyed EVERYONES posts,it seems there is some jeolousy brewing in the cage because we can all get along--EVEN WITH YOU GUYS WHO'VE BEEN ACCUSED AS BEING "THE BOBCAT GODS" take care,happy Easter to all.

[George Streepy]

Unreal_tk,

It would take a better houndsmen than me, even with a Garmin, to know if they took a red hot strike backwards. Some guys say they can tell with their experienced dogs and so can I to an extent. Pups/young dogs are always changing the way they act and sound so it would be hard for me to tell in the few minutes before they have moved out to far to hear me. I might suspect something but not with enough certainty to correct dogs, especially young ones. On those hot tracks even the young dogs burn out of there so fast that it would be hard for me to turn them around. If a young dog can't run a red hot track with its head up then it wasn't ready to try on its own yet.

I don't want to be a downer on your thoughts of making and building independent, confident young dogs. I hope it works great for you. I see the appeal to what you and Cobalt are saying. I just worry I would mess the dogs up more than I would help their development. I am sure the area you hunt would be more advantageous to try it than the areas I hunted.

Take care,
George

[Unreal_tk]

Thanks George,

I'm just wanting to see if people tried something different, they might be surprised about the results. Always good to try new ideas and thoughts. You just might find the golden egg laid by the goose.

Let's say you run a small pack of 5. Ok 3 older dogs, 1 younger, 1 pup. Now let's say accident takes out 2 of those lead dogs. Now you are still ok, but your weakened. Then your other old dog kills over but that young dog is just a follower yet. Your on ground zero all over again. But if you did your homework like I plan on doing, your young dog is ready to start catching your hot tracks for you and he's already bent on trashing, going backwards, or even just looking at you like are you kidding me?

Now then odds of that happening may be slim but id rather be prepared to start with a decent candidate instead of going from the ground again. Guys who run large packs would most likely not run into this issue as easily. I had a friend have this happen recently so that's another reason this came up for me.

[George Streepy]

Unreal_tk,

I have turned out pups before the other dogs, most of the time I ended up with the feeling that I hadn't accomplished much. I try to keep an open mind. In order to take some of the practices people talk about and make them work until you see the results, can be a very long term game. So most guys are going to stick with what they know will make dogs and still work with their particular style of hunting. Most of us are mixing things up a little bit and looking for good results, judging what we think is best for the particular dog in front of us. I can be easily persuaded into trying something new, I like to watch other guys work there dogs and listen to their techniques. That is a far more beneficial way to learn about training techniques then listening to guys like me on the computer.


Thanks for the chat,
George

[twist]

Unreal, what you are wanting out of your younger dogs is exactly what I am doing with my young dogs with out setting the young prospect up for failure or learning to trash out. For the most part if run your young prospects with good solid dogs and they are doing their part day in and day out from truck to tree when the day comes you do need to put them on a track or just decide to give them a shot at running at track you will be more than likely impressed or with very little help they will take the track like they have been doing it with the older dog with out the greater chance of failure. But in the end it is all a crap shoot as nothing is for sure in life. happy training, Andy

[cobalt]

So I have a question for George. How does turning older experienced dogs off on a strike each time help teach the up and coming dogs to start the track in the right direction when it's their time? My experience with this is the younger I can put a pup out on a real track, be it six months or a year old, the more the likelyhood that the pup will, if taken backwards, go a shorter distance because it gets really old, really fast for a pup to work. I actually want them to experience it so they grow up knowing there is a right way and a wrong way. Lessons learned from corrected mistakes imprint better IMO. If you've ever seen a young dog turn a track around by itself at a tender age, you'll know what I mean.
All training methods are subject to dispute and all methods can produce an undesired effect. Maybe I push the boundries with my methods and my total program, but I use them and stand by them . Also, this is a small facit of my training methods. I use a lot of controlled methods and heavy handling techniques so when my dogs hit the ground they are in a certain place in their heads. They are also no stranger to the woods. I say these things humbly because there is always room for improvement and I do not think I have the best trained dogs out there. The best I can say is that they are usually competitive.

Tim, not sure what you're asking, but I think it has to do with working with dogs that have a higher aptitude to finish out on their own regardless of the training they've had, I would say good luck to ya. Dogs are dogs and they're dynamics are as diverse as the weather in springtime. Greatness is measured after the finished product is assessed and to me a lot of speculation about failure and greatness is judged prematurely and inaccurately. When a dog is young, my intentions are to guide him/her on a pathway to make the right decisions so even if they are outmached in the field by my dogs or others, they end up doing the right thing just like most would expect out of any seasoned dog. If they are missing something or have a bad trait, they will disappear at some point, but as long as they are progressing in a positive direction, I will keep with it. And to you I will say they must show strong tree traits by one year old. I run tree dogs so they darn sure better tree.

[Marshall]

Unreal, what you are wanting out of your younger dogs is exactly what I am doing with my young dogs with out setting the young prospect up for failure or learning to trash out. For the most part if run your young prospects with good solid dogs and they are doing their part day in and day out from truck to tree when the day comes you do need to put them on a track or just decide to give them a shot at running at track you will be more than likely impressed or with very little help they will take the track like they have been doing it with the older dog with out the greater chance of failure. But in the end it is all a crap shoot as nothing is for sure in life. happy training, Andy

I don't understand how you could be setting a young dog up for failure if you are letting it start a track.....on that one I'm lost. I will however agree with you that it is a absolute crapshoot that your young dog will start tracks if need be just because it's been on races and trees. This does nothing for the dogs ability for starting tracks IMO. You don't get pack dogs by having them realize they can start their own track but, you do make them by continuously turning them in after the other dogs and visa versa.....again just my opinion. I don't own any one single dog that I call " old faithful " nor will I ever because I believe when you put all your stock in one dog to get things done then you have failed already. Why not spend the extra time to ensure that if one dog goes down then there will be without a doubt another that steps right in without the crapshoot factor? Hey I'm not trying to say what anyone is doing is wrong by any means because it has worked for you and that is proof enough for me but, it just seems that you are setting a young dog up for more of a failure by trying to have it step in if need be without the ground work per say. Am I off on this?

Marshall

[George Streepy]

So I have a question for George. How does turning older experienced dogs off on a strike each time help teach the up and coming dogs to start the track in the right direction when it's their time?

It doesn't, but neither does putting a dog down in the snow and telling them what way to go. I don't have very high expectations of a young dog. I just want them to tag along and smell cats. After a while they start striking with the older dogs, that is when they start to build a little confidence. They start to hit the ground and it isn't unusual for them to try and go the wrong way, but the older dogs won't let them. I would be very interested to hear how guys teach young dogs to go the right way when there isn't a track to be seen. I don't know how it would be possible with the fact a guy can't smell the cat, they can't see the cat, and they can't see a track. The hunter is depending on their dogs to figure out which way is right. Some dogs are very good at this, and some never get it. They have a 50% chance of going the right way. Having dogs that consistently take a track the right way is hard to get. I can turn dogs around after there are some clues they are backwards. If the track seems to be getting worse I can pick them up and take them back and try it the other way. But if they hit a section that is hard to trail through, it may be just that, turning them around and taking them back to the start maybe a mistake.

As I mentioned above, I would be very interested in hearing how guys teach dogs to go the right way on dry ground without a track to be seen.

I know that doesn't really answer the question, but I feel better having the experienced dogs take them the right way. I have all sorts of opinions about these things, but it is just that, an opinion. I look forward to learning new techniques.

[webb]

I don't know a whole lot but what I have read has been very helpful. But one thing I have noticed in hunting hounds is that those good ones just don't need to be seperated from those old dogs. It just seems that when the light turns on it don't matter what dogs its with it goes and does its job. You see them running in front you see them coming out with the loses you start hearing them locating. But I also think its a matter of how much a person can take that young dog out and show it game.


That's my 2 cents, Kyle

[cobalt]

George said"I would be very interested in hearing how guys teach dogs to go the right way on dry ground without a track to be seen."

Sounds like a good new topic!! But you already know what I'd say .

George said "I don't have very high expectations of a young dog. I just want them to tag along and smell cats."

[Tim Pittman]

Cobalt---I don't believe in anything finishing out on it's own,or regardless of training.To put my ????in laymans terms,will your philosophy bullet proof a dog from being effected in a negative way when exposed to a new pack of dogs,better than starting them the other way in apack??I've got my opinion,just wanted yours.Yes I do believe some individuals as Webb stated,would make it whichever way they were started if exposed to enough game,with the given basics of handling put on them as well.But I don't expect all of them to be this way,and I do believe there are certain conventional training methods that do a bobcat dog absolutley no favors.As far as dogs catching their own game,most hounds I've seen worth their salt caught their own cat anywhere between 10-18months that had been hunted in a pack situation.Usually consists of a split race or getting way out on the others without opening.I do commend and admire your program if it continues to produce locate and tree dogs on bobcat by the time they are a year old,what I seen out of Bonnie excited me,as I said before looks like homework and a nack for picking dogs to breed went into that dog.

[Trueblue]

Yes I do believe some individuals as Webb stated,would make it whichever way they were started if exposed to enough game,with the given basics of handling put on them as well.But I don't expect all of them to be this way,and I do believe there are certain conventional training methods that do a bobcat dog absolutley no favors.As far as dogs catching their own game,most hounds I've seen worth their salt caught their own cat anywhere between 10-18months that had been hunted in a pack situation.

I agree with you Tim.There are those dogs out there that just plain have more natural ability than most.It seems that they can thrive and excel in almost any situation even poor handling and training environments.I wish that were the rule but it seems to be the exception in my experience.I have known guys who go through a lot of dogs looking for those "naturals" because the truth is,they just aren't very good trainers and they have to have those naturals that make it regardless of poor handling.Often times those guys get really fixated on bloodlines because they think that if they could just get the right blood or the right cross they would all be naturals.I think that guys like Cobalt aren't waiting for those freaks to come along.They have the ability to make pretty nice dogs across the board because of their training methods that focus on individuals and making each dog the best that YOU can make it and not waiting for dogs to be the best they can be on their own.I think that method produces many more useful dogs over time.It eliminates the probability of having me too dogs or dogs that never end up developing to their full potential.Some guys have a nack for bringing the best out of a dog.I think you are probably one of those guys Tim, and if you aren't then I know you are well on your way.You seem to me to be very open minded and someone who really wants to be the best that he can be as a houndman and isn't too proud to learn anywhere and everywhere he can.

I don't want to mislead anyone about bloodlines, that is very important, but putting that well bred dog in the hands of a competent trainer is more important.