Line Bred Bobcat Hounds???

[festus]

Mr Clay,
That red pup with the white tipped tail is a good looking pup. I have allways liked that coloration in a hound. Takes me back to when I first began hunting with hounds, my first hound was colored and marked similar to that pup.

That pup in the feed dish sure has that Ozark Preacher coloration and look to him, course the old Preacher dog was said to have some running dog heritage in him. Very nice looking pups for sure.
Josh

[Melanie Hampton]

I don't think those pups have any color faults.. They are a product of their heritage..

I can say when I raise a litter, then will be tri colored Does that count on telling what color they will be

I'm not sure what I would do if my only pup worth breeding was recessive.. One of my favorite males is, but access to breeding him is not easy.. So I haven't.. They have outcrossed him, and no dilutes.. But I'm not sure if I would want to linebreed one him? I'm not sure what would happen and I'm not sure that I want to try it yet, at this point.. I'm not trying to re-invent any wheel.. Just keep me in hunting dogs that suit my style of hunting...

[slowandeasy]

quote Festus : That pup in the feed dish sure has that Ozark Preacher coloration and look to him, course the old Preacher dog was said to have some running dog heritage in him. Very nice looking pups for sure.

sure is funny how preacher more often than not left his mark on his pups with that color. c.j. it's just a coincidence, as there is no preacher blood in any of your stuff is there? take care, willy


I edited this Post to add "When a Houndsman starts to let Color rather than Performance influence his Breeding decisions not only has his quality of Hounds headed down hill his Integrity has as well" This is a Hot off the Presses quote from Dad!

AND BOY IS THIS A QUOTE TO LIVE BY!!

[dwalton]

What people forget is that every Treeing Walker out there has running dog ancestry. So what we did with it after someone made up Treeing Walkers is up to each persons choosing. If it weren't for the running dogs I would of not caught many bobcats in my life time. I kind of like the running dogs. If they can't tree how did we get the Treeing Walker? Dewey

[astringer]

Ole Preacher must have been an outstanding hound.

[festus]

You are 100% right on Dewey, the treeing walkers started out as running walkers. Lester Nance started using the running walkers that would tree a little and show that trait and bred them up from there. That is how Mr Nance came up with the treeing walker name as they were running walkers that would tree.
When UKC finally came around and seperated the dogs Mr nance was working with and allowed him to register a new line of hounds he named them treeing walkers and registerfed the first UKC treeing walker.

[Dads dogboy]

Festus, Thanks much for the TW history lesson, I can never remember that it was Mr. Nance who started them. It is kinda funny hearing the TW-Big Game Hound breeders dissing the Running Hounds when their Hounds carry mostly Old Lines of Running Hound Blood;going back fewer generations to their Origins than Dads. I think the TW were started by Nance in the late 1930s or 40s.....Hub Dawson was whelped in the early 1900s (I think 1908).

Running Hounds of several Strains have individuals who are darn nice Tree dogs. The old lines of Trigg’s had lots of Tree dogs…not so much now as more of them are in the Pens now than in the Woods.

If you and Slow and Easy could see a Pic of the “Feed Bowl” Pup in a couple of Months you would not believe it was the same Hound. He will be a DARK Red with a few Black hairs down his back…fewer than what the Red Pup shows now. The Red Pup will fade to a much lighter almost Yellow color.

Yep Mr. Don…we can pretty much tell what Colors they will be before they are born…might be fooled for a while when they are born….given time (a couple of Months) the Color will stabilize!

Mr. Alan, the Preacher Hound referred to above is a different Hound than the Preacher that Mr. Harold had many years ago. His Preacher was a Running Hound mostly of Dad’s blood.

[slowandeasy]

c.j., funny that you are getting that consistantcy with the color. with the speck and john dogs even as we tightened things up. we would always get a variation in color. in the same litter we would always get a couple that looked like holsteins, a couple blueticks, and a couple redticks. but that never changed one bit. although we were having pretty good luck. the way things played out i know that we were unable to see anything really lock in.

[Tbblue]

Wow! John Ray bred blues . 45 yrs line bred that run to catch n do so with ease.

[driftwood blue]

I believe that both of the fellows have some very good thoughts-
It cannot be stressed enough that in breeding with the line breeding and inbreeding, one cannot forget you must cull ruthlessly---(do not try to pass off the pups until you do that)

Mr Thomas was dealing with dogs a lot more in line with what we deal with...Hounds that trail---plus we are (hopefully dealing with the treeing trait also)--- just 2 more very important things to deal with in addition to what Mr Brackett dealt with but there are a lot of the same principles involved..

[cobalt]

Don't all our tree hounds come in one way or another from fox hounds? Weren't they all registered at one point under a single name, english coonhound (pre 1930)? And don't all of these hounds probably have a common foundation ancestor in George Washinton Maupin's "Tennessee Lead" (a foxhound) who was in fact a black and tan hound? So what?? To say that because they have running blood in them or come from them doesn't mean they fit the bill in the venue of good cat dog stock IMO and IMO is a slap in the face to true breeders of selectively produced dogs (over a long and trying academic process) that have an infusement of running blood. Just mixing running blood willy-nilly with treeing blood for a couple generations is no stroke of genius, and worthy debate because the products that I've seen have been far less than successful as a whole and the ones who do raise an eyebrow (the one's who truly locate and tree as well as having the other goods) are rarely cultivated into a longstanding line of perpetual reproducers of their like. One top hunter I know in reference to these type of dogs which are hunted in the big timber said " I love having them, but in order to get a good one, a trainload of culls have to be gone through to find one". Wine, whiskey and breeding have a couple common similarities. All take a long time to perfect and age and although many think they have it figured out, very few get it right. My opinion.

[tomtom]

Since somebody finally brought up the Nature vs Nurture topic, I have a question. How much can we influence a hunting trait in our line through adaptation? If at all, how quickly? Can I take a foxhound pup and coonhunt with him, and his pups be stronger tree dogs? Can I keep a cur to turn in with foxhounds and her pups have more range? Poor analogy but I bet you get the point. The old timers always said the best way to train a cathound is inside it's momma. That statement deserves another thread, but hopefully you understand what I'm asking. thanks.

[slowandeasy]

Don't all our tree hounds come in one way or another from fox hounds? Weren't they all registered at one point under a single name, english coonhound (pre 1930)? And don't all of these hounds probably have a common foundation ancestor in George Washinton Maupin's "Tennessee Lead" (a foxhound) who was in fact a black and tan hound? So what?? To say that because they have running blood in them or come from them doesn't mean they fit the bill in the venue of good cat dog stock IMO and IMO is a slap in the face to true breeders of selectively produced dogs (over a long and trying academic process) that have an infusement of running blood. Just mixing running blood willy-nilly with treeing blood for a couple generations is no stroke of genius, and worthy debate because the products that I've seen have been far less than successful as a whole and the ones who do raise an eyebrow (the one's who truly locate and tree as well as having the other goods) are rarely cultivated into a longstanding line of perpetual reproducers of their like. One top hunter I know in reference to these type of dogs which are hunted in the big timber said " I love having them, but in order to get a good one, a trainload of culls have to be gone through to find one". Wine, whiskey and breeding have a couple common similarities. All take a long time to perfect and age and although many think they have it figured out, very few get it right. My opinion.

this is a quote that has a bit of wisdom. i have often wondered, especially in this topic right here. where i truely believe that line breeding IS the right approach for success. why a person would make a statement to add running dogs into their tree dog blood. based on the theory of what is being discused. would this not put a person at the back of a line that would take you ten to fifeteen years to reach the front.

also quoted from Cobalt: So what?? To say that because they have running blood in them or come from them doesn't mean they fit the bill in the venue of good cat dog stock IMO and IMO is a slap in the face to true breeders of selectively produced dogs (over a long and trying academic process) that have an infusement of running blood.


what i am saying is sometimes it is not neccesary to reinvent the wheel. and the type of hound we all should be looking for, should do all of the things that are required to put a cat in a tree. no matter what the chosen game is. now C.J. gave an example of what his definition of winding was on a different topic. ( C.J. after talking to me i don't think i have to say no disrespect intended. but just incase ). and explained that to tree a cat more often a good cat hound (all hounds) need to be able to wind the cat in the tree to locate wich tree has the meat. now i personally have owned four, and have known enough others that have had dogs that had fast enough track speed to make a person believe they were hearing a deer race only to end up treed. ( and no they didn't get switched). these same dogs, after a cold snap of 0 degrees for about a week, and 6 to ten inches of snow on the ground. when coon absolutely are in den trees. were able to go down through the timber and locate every den tree in the country. these type hounds are out there. and like everything else some have made a decision to say they have to reinvent the wheel. simply because they have not had the pleasure to hunt behind one. this is not ment to say that when some make changes and refine things to their liking is not only comendable but admired! and although what people have managed to do to a good percentage of the tree dog breeds in general. do not dissilusion one's self to believe all of the tree dog breeders are green as grass. and are clueless as what style hound it takes to put any kind of game on the wood.and are reproducing them and will for years to come. take care,Willy

[JTG]

TomTom,

Environment always pay’s an important role whether it’s giving a dog a chance to reach his potential.(Hunting the hell out of them) Or things like the temperature. For example the same line-breed of dogs in Montana over time will become smaller in Texas.

All breeds of dogs were mixed at one time through inbreeding and selection makes the dogs we have today. (By adding new genes and removing unwanted genes.) The rate varies depending on how strongly you inbreed. (The breeder though selection is removing unwanted genes.)

Selection can be for size, scent, color, treeing ability, vigor, health just about any trait.

The “old timey, what I heard” way of breeding is outdated. In science it’s either a fact or a theory. There’s a big difference.
JTG

[al baldwin]

COLBALT sure has some valid points. Nothing against running dogs or line breeding, but, in this area have noticed most successful cat hunters have a mixture of tree hounds with a small amount of running dog behind them. And if they hunt running stock, usually have a tree bred hound or two to do the locating & hold those running dogs at the tree. I have noticed most who breed thier own lines tend to over look some weak areas in thier hounds. Believe its just human nature, kinda like how we treat our kids. For the hunters who cannot devote a tremendous amount of time to hunting I believe line bred running stock would be tough to train for enjoyable cat hunting. Do not mean to ruffle feathers, but, have noticed dogs that are not close related on average have far less health issues & tend to have a longer hunting life. I believe one can do a form of line breeding by selecting hounds with simular traits & whose ancestors have possessed these same traits & not close related. but, then what the heck do I know???? Bred and hunt your hounds the way you prefer, & besure you not take hunting so serious it takes the fun out of it. One never knows when health can do that for you. Enjoyed these post. Thanks Al Baldwin