Maybe There Is Something to this Genetics Thing???

[Gary Roberson]

While I have raised and hunted grade dogs most of my early life, breeding the good ones back to good ones, I began breeding registered dogs just over 20 years ago. In my opinion, training is the most factor in determining how a good a dog can be. However, I also believe that a dog can be limited on how good the "finished product" turns out by how he is bred. To say that papers make a dog better is simply not true as there is as much "junk" with the registered breeders as there is with the guy raising grade dogs. I will say that if a guy knows a little about the historic characteristics of the dogs he is breeding, it should make the result more predictable and more uniformity in the offspring.
The foundation of my dogs was a female that I purchased from Dartez Brumley over 20 years ago. She was a natural coon dog and I never broke her from running offgame as she did not run anything but a coon. She had an interesting trait that I had not seen until I started shooting coons out to her, she had to carry all of them back to the truck.
I purchased an own son of JBS Cheif and Wolfenbargers Speck and bred Fly. Fly's milk was toxic and I only raised one female on a bottle and named her Mamie. Mamie was a natural as well and an excellent coondog. I raised one litter from her before she died with pneumonia. By the way, Mamie had the same habit of carrying all the coons back to the truck.
Mamie's litter was by an own son of Blue Boy II and I kept Tex, Betty and Hollywood from this cross. All of these were above average coondogs. Betty was my pick and I hauled her to Cl. Rv. Diamond Jim in OK. And yes, Betty was a "coon packer" as well. I kept Lizzie, Jimmy and Flint from that cross. Jimmy was the best cat dog I have ever raised while Lizzie was the stronger coon dog. She carried all the coons back to the truck like her ancestors. Lizzie never cycled so I went to Robert and Melanie Hittson and purchased Daisy who was strong Smokey River and had Blue Boy II on the bottomside to breed to the Jimmy dog.
This cross produced the best hounds I have ever followed, Rip, Hondo, Ten and Dan. I lost Jimmy before I could make the cross again so I bred Daisy back to Flint, his litter mate brother. I am hunting two gyps from this litter, Jill and Sally that is going to Hector Pier in Tampico, Mexico in July.
The pups are doing well and are running and treeing with Ten and Daisy. I call my dogs back to the truck after every tree. This practice keeps them together and makes it easier on me to maintain control when I start to road them again.
The other night, I walked away from the dogs while they were finishing off a coon and began to call as I walked. By the time I got to the pickup, Ten, Daisy and Sally were there so I loaded them in the box. I called to Jill but I could not hear her answering. I called again and tapped her on the Tritronics. In a minute or so, I could hear her coming and it sounded as though she was laboring. I shined her and found that she has inherited the "coon packing" trait that has been passed through at least five generations. I guess there is something to this genetics thing.
Adios,
Gary

[hectorp]

Gary,

Waiting for the month of July to go and pick up Sally.

I suscribe to Full Cry the year of 1998 until the year of 2008 when they told me they can´t renew my suscription because it was very expensive to send the copies down to Mexico.

The suscription I got in 1998 it was from a suscription form of an old Full Cry Magazine August 1993 and uncle gave to me.

Two week ago I started to read for another time the Old Full Cry Magazines I have. Specially the articles of Breeding for Results of Mc Duffie, O.L. Becham, Guy Ormiston and with this post when I was looking through the index the last name Brumley look familiar. I check another time this post and I find out Dartez Brumley from Olney, TX. write at that time "Blue Hounds of Bugle Mountain.

Last night I read the article of Dartez Brumley of the August 1993 and he put the letter I think is your son Clint Roberson of Menard, Tx. writed to him about the report of Fly, that he was very happy how Fly was coming along. At that time she had about 20 to 30 coons to her and how she was able to tree the phantom coon, that in previous two ocassions that coon had being able to escape. Clint was giving thanks to Dartez Brumley about the good pup he sell to Clint and you.

JUST TO REMIND YOU, OLD GOOD MEMORIES WITH YOUR SON AND WHEN THE TRAIT BEGAN.

[hectorp]

And about Genetics.

Reading for another time the articles of Mc Duffie in the January 1998 Full Cry issue. About what you posted is: "Picking a pup from the litter"

The best chance of getting a good pup is to choose one from a family of proven producers. Breeding best to best is probably better than breeding worst to worst. However, getting a high percentage of good pups, from a breeding of best to best, if there is no genetic compatiblity, isn´t very high. The chance of getting a good pup from two average dogs from a long line of proven producers is much higher than from two outstandin individuals that aren´t genertically compatible.

Genetics is only half the equation. Enviaroment is also necessary for a good genetic prospect to mature into a good adult dog. The best bred pup in the world stands little chance in the wrong environment. If the picker is familiar with several generation of the family he is picking from, his chances of making a good choice are much higher.

[Gary Roberson]

Hector
You are so correct. It took me a long time to figure this one out, but as a youngster, I was not so interested in breeding. As luck would have it, I finally hit on a mating that has worked very well for the type of dog I like and plan to make the cross until it is impossible.
Sally is continuing to improve. She has an above average nose and is reallly trying to cold trail. She is beginning to tree harder and covers a lot of real estate. She is an "easy keeper" and stays in above average body condition even though I am trying to hunt her everyday.
Adios,
Gary

[buglemountain]

Well I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Genetics are everything. If the genetics aren't their you could raise them anywhere and it wouldn't matter. I use what dad taught me in breeding and even though I'm not in the hound business, it's worked perfectly. I still have a pair out of dads last litter. They're not for sale but might breed if someone had the right dog.

[Gary Roberson]

Good to hear from you buglemountain. Are you still fiddling around the country?
Your Dad was quite a fan of the Vaughn bred blues when I was trading and visiting with him. I visited with him a time or two after he moved to Talequah and he had started crossing his Vaughn bred hounds to some other Okie hounds. Was his last litter sired by Bodacious?
Adios,
Gary

[buglemountain]

I'm headed to play now. The last litter was out of Bodacious. I know the pups I've heard about turn out good. The genetics on the two adults were very close. This is off being that they weren't related.

[buglemountain]

Sorry I was driving and trying to post on the last reply. The genetics were very close in the last cross he did. I have the genetics and how they matched up. It's very interesting. I'm thinking about breeding my female hound to a Wilmoth Male. I'm not in the business of hounds but I'd like to see how they'd cross. I believe fully in genetics. Dad had advanced knowledge in the science. I have some knowledge of the science. I breed French bulldogs and the genetics that dad taught be has allowed me to create dogs that can better tolerate heat. This is very desirable in these dogs due to their popularity in California. I don't know if you've DNA tested any of your dogs but if so, you could probably locate the gene that is common in them. This would likely link to the coon carrying trait. I wish I was where I could hunt some. I've got two of the best looking hounds we've ever produced. I've threatened to get rid of them but I don't trust anyone with them. I think the male would do well on the bench. They've made good yard dogs. Lol. They're very smart and show all the signs of being hunters. They just haven't had the chance. I live in town and the neighbors love me with my dogs. Ha. If anyone has questions about genetics, I'll do my best to help out. I'm amazed at how people remember dad in the dog business. Wish he was still here. We spent many night on a four wheeler listening to dogs run. Ive considered writing a book using his articles, personal stories, and journals. Not sure if there'd be a market for it. Well - good hunting to y'all.

[Gary Roberson]

Great to hear from you and I would be interested in a book about your Dad. He was educated but also had a lot of "horse sense" which can't be found in a text book.
Wish you were where you could hunt as well. Are you still in the Waco area?
Adios,
Gary

[Dads dogboy]

Buglemountian,

Any Book on the Breeding of Hounds by a Successful Houndsman would be very well received.

The Folks at High Lonesome and now it appears Rimrock Publishing are there to help.

It would sell in the 2500 to 5000 copies world wide and it would sure go worldwide as the Houndsmen in Africa, Australia, Europe, and South America are hungry for GOOD Solid information!

Good Luck!

[Gary Roberson]

CJC
You and your Dad should write a book with all of the years hunting and over much of the country. I bet you have a ton of photos to go with the text. As you said, folks are hungry for this type of information.
Adios,
Gary

[JTG]

Very good Hector. Mr. McDuffie was ahead of his time in his breeding program.(Inbreeding program.) That is why you see his hounds still around despite the “help” from others.
Gary, I respectfully disagree with the training part and in my opinion training is less than ten percent as long as you give the hounds the same amount of time in the woods and everythng else equal.
Here is a small example but I have also done experiments using the scientific method. I gave a friend a pup and was riding with him to go hunting. We stop to pick up another friend and I stayed back with the dogs. A house cat ran by and the pup exploded bawling. All I did was pat the pup and tell him good boy and “I know, I know. My friend came out and started yelling at the pup to be quiet. I patted the pup again and said sorry buddy.
I spoke with my friend months latter and ask him how the pup was doing. Quote:" I cannot break him off of bobcats even with a shock collar". There's more that I will leave out.
Back to genetics, Most good lines which are few and far between are ruin by adding new blood. It is far better to have a smaller gene pool with quality genes. The way 99 % of breeders breed they change the genetic code with each new breeding by outcrossing with unrelated stock.(Best to the best, this is what I heard,what might happen? etc.)
Genetically inbreeding concentrates both the good and the bad. The study of genetics explains how to lock in the good traits while removing the bad. By inbreeding it speeds up the pace allowing you to identify the desirable and undesirable.
Genes start out with a single allele called heterozygous when the gene doubles it becomes homozygous and becomes dominant. When genes are heterozygous they will NOT pass with consistently.
Most breeders are breeding with heterozygous genes thus random gene expression.” Do you see why they can not produce their like or get better with each breeding?
When you have been hearing things for years it's hard for most to see outside the box. Gary I am glad to see you looking outside the box.
JTG

[Gary Roberson]

The cat hunters of South Texas are prime examples of hunters who breed the best to the best and don't look at pedigrees because none of the dogs are registered. While I agree that genetics is MOST important it is difficult to argue with the success that some of these cat hunters are having. I know several hunters that are catching 150-300 cats a year with dogs of unknown pedigrees. They are in a high population area and hunt 300 days of the year. I am going to keep studying pedigrees and looking further into the future as I plan where I am going with these potlickers.
I am trading my Ten gyp for a female that is related to my dogs on her dam's side. She is Jet 8 on the top which is reaching a little. The problem I have is I am hunting four hounds and they are all littermates or full brothers and sisters.
If this gyp makes a nice hound, I plan to breed her to the Dan dog that I raised and am presently hunting. I am planning to trade a male from Daisy's next litter to Dennis Upson for one of his males that are closely related to my hounds and if he makes a hound, plan to breed to my Jill pup. Jill is making a very nice hound and has the confirmation that I like in a hound.
Adios,
Gary

[JTG]

Gary, the problem you mention is actually the solution. The way you are heading is where most go right when the improvement of the breed is slapping them in the face. The South Texas hunters would be catching more cats with less hounds that are better hounds that live longer if they get off the old timey, does not work, this is what I heard method.

JTG

[slowandeasy]

Quote from JTG:


Gary, the problem you mention is actually the solution. The way you are heading is where most go right when the improvement of the breed is slapping them in the face.

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