Pull the trigger? It's your choice

[jrob160]

jlh, you going to come out and have your girlfriend kill another lion next year and make it 3 in a row? I think killing 2 in a row is slightly greedy, but I dont feel the need to kill something that isnt a good representation of a species.
I dont know how you can "like" this post when its referring to people like yourself.

[bears@uha]

I like this post if your proud of it you dont need an excuse but most lion stories I hear in Utah are followed with an excuse. I especialy like the one it was the onlytrack we found in a weak boy thats gona be a great place to hunt now.

[Darvin Ecklund]

A lot of houndmen go out of State to run their hounds but have to buy an expensive tag to do so. It is too bad States don't have a pursuit only tag at a much cheaper rate. It may reduce some of the take. Right or Wrong, I think some guys feel if they spend $300.00 or more on an out of State tag they are going to harvest an animal. Yes it is great to not shoot females, but at the same time I would rather have someone harvest a female and get a rug or full mount made then shoot a big Tom and do nothing with it! I use to buy a Montana lis. but I would not go over until the quota was full so I don't run into so many hunters in the woods. Much more enjoyable and lots of good video!

[Jlhoutfitters]

jlh, you going to come out and have your girlfriend kill another lion next year and make it 3 in a row? I think killing 2 in a row is slightly greedy, but I dont feel the need to kill something that isnt a good representation of a species.
I dont know how you can "like" this post when its referring to people like yourself.

I agree and do like this post. she killed a large tom cat this yr that is a great representation and was alot of work. It was one of just two tracks we put down on. out of the 9 we found in 5 days most were subs and or females we didnt even run even though some of them were hot tracks that would have been easy to catch, now not that its wrong if she killed another cat next yr but we have decided that one b&c cat per person is plenty. I have no greed and am not a game hog. i just enjoy running hounds infact we had decided prior to coming out that she would only take a very large tom as her seconed cat wether it was this year or 5 years from now. I will be there next yr and this yr my father will join me at my grandparents ranch once again to run lion. We dont come to "Take your cats" we come to enjoy your state and run our hounds i may not see another cat shot out for yrs. But if we tree a large tom next yr i sure will. And somday i will take a large tom myself. please dont judge me or my girlfriend we are both good and ethical houndsman that belive the chase is the hunt and the kill is anticlimatic. we have been fortunate and i dont like being bagered about it.


P.S. In 2011 we treed two subs that were free of spots and "leagal" and put mom in a cave near by after falling of a cold tom track but we without a seconed thought, let them go. I dont appretiate being called " one of them" Thanks

[Shorty]

I don't believe Mike wrote this post in order to get the finger pointing game going. Instead I think it was intended to get "them people" to thinking. I thoroughly enjoyed the post! However, as soon as the finger pointing game starts people will clam up. They'll stop using their brain and go into a hole and hide. Let's keep this post alive and classy. Let the folks that have made some bad decisions read it and soak up everyones input. They most likely haven't heard the science behind protecting a population of game animals. Either that or they believe everyone is ot to kill whatever they catch. Let's stimulate their mind into thinking like "we" do and not scare them into hiding and brain shut down. Jmo

[Dillon]

I am new to lion hunting since I've only been doing it for about 12 months.I know how everyone feels about this topic that harvesting females and younger cats will ruin our sport.but in another perspective,I absolutely live to bow hunt mule deer here in northern Nevada.It kind of gets at me a little bit when I run a female in the same canyons I hunt deer and find two kills at the same time.The mule deer herd here in Nevada isn't exactly flurishing.and I have talked to hounds men in this area that are straight forward on this topic and say how tracks are getting harder to find.but it's funny how I hunt every day I can and have only run into one other hounds men in 5 weeks.hope Im not stepping on Anyones toes,but with supposedly 15 other houndsmen where I live I don't see a soul.makes me wonder if most guys catch lions from there couches.

[B/T]

Not a fan of shooting females and to much typing to say what goes on in my area and about the kittens left to starve or shot and left at the trees.
but what is wrong with someone taking a younger tom if that is what they want, and Im talking about the guy that takes that one cat for there trophy not the guy that shoots one every year and does nothing with it, you will never change that mind set either.

[Lion King]

IMCHESTNUTT,

What you forgot to mention in your story is the area this Female was harvested in. If its the case im thinking of you went hunting with a friend to "HIS" spot. He asked you not to harvest females there. He basically took you to the spot in the good faith that you wouldnt go without him and obey his wishes in harvesting. You went anyway and harvested a Female to boot. When somebody poaches a hunting spot from a friend that is the same as sleeping with there wife. Unacceptable. It is your choice of what u harvest, but why didnt you harvest a female in your hunting area? Hound hunters are very teritorrial you know this, how would you like it if we go run your Bear baits and kill everything we tree? Dont worry we wont do that cause we have Morals. Practice what you preach.

[B/T]

Mike,

I really like your post and I think it is spot on. I will say, I think some people, especially some of the old timers (I am a newby compared to most people), can take it too far as well.

My father, who has been on 3-4 guided lion hunts and had an unfortunate amputation a few years ago, recently drew a hound hunter permit in Idaho. He came down and hunted for about ten days. During that time, the lion hunting was slow, it was bitter cold (which is very hard on an amputee’s leg because they are very difficult to keep warm due to the metal and plastic against their leg), the snow was deep and the lions were in some steep country. We passed up a few females. I finally found a tom track and I turned loose. After getting my dad three quarters of the way to the tree, I got there and they had an older female treed. My dad was still behind me making his way up and down some steep slopes in snowshoes, which is VERY difficult when you have prosthesis. Long story short, I allowed my dad to harvest the lion. He had a bad limp the next few days but a huge smile on his face from a memorable hunt with his son that he rarely gets to hunt with anymore. He was proud of that lion and I was proud him for pushing through and hunting hard.

Despite my father’s disability and days of hunting in rough conditions, I still caught quite a bit of grief about being a “female killer.” I will be honest, it’s something I don’t need and don’t appreciate. I have hunted on and off with hounds since I was 16 years old and have had my own dogs for four seasons now. In total, I have harvested one mature tom myself (after 3 years of hunting lions) and allowed my dad to harvest his first cat after a memorable hunt with him.

I am of the opinion that too many guys are killing smaller toms. If we want more lions, we need to leave more lions in the tree. This should include females and TOMS. I guess I am of the opinion that the more toms we have, the more often females can get bred and the more tracks we have to run. I certainly don’t think me killing two lions in over ten years of hunting is overharvest and I certainly don’t need to hear it from some older timers who knock every tom they catch out of the tree.

The reality is, in most states, it is up to houndsmen to regulate lion harvest. We all need to be smart and put our egos aside. To me this extends beyond leaving females. It means looking up at a lion, realizing it is a nice tom, maybe even a tom someone else would kill in a second, and walking away knowing that maybe next week, maybe next month or even maybe next year you will get to hear your dogs trail that same lion in an adjacent canyon and with some luck get to hear them barking treed.

Good post though, there is a lot to consider before harvesting a lion. We all need to be conscious of our future and the future of lions. I appreciate your thoughts and wisdom on the subject.

Ian Chestnut

You mention you started on a tom track but ended up with a female in the tree.
Just curious if the dogs switched tracks during the run or did you misidentify the track from the start.

[slowandeasy]

IMCHESTNUTT,

What you forgot to mention in your story is the area this Female was harvested in. If its the case im thinking of you went hunting with a friend to "HIS" spot. He asked you not to harvest females there. He basically took you to the spot in the good faith that you wouldnt go without him and obey his wishes in harvesting. You went anyway and harvested a Female to boot. When somebody poaches a hunting spot from a friend that is the same as sleeping with there wife. Unacceptable. It is your choice of what u harvest, but why didnt you harvest a female in your hunting area? Hound hunters are very teritorrial you know this, how would you like it if we go run your Bear baits and kill everything we tree? Dont worry we wont do that cause we have Morals. Practice what you preach.

That is some funny chit right there!! I guess some haven't figured out. That there isn't any place in the country me, you, or anyone else has gone to hunt. That someone else hasn't put a foot on!! Those that claim to be very territorial. Better be paying the taxes on their territory, or they are delusional, and quite funny.

Take care, Willie

[Lion King]

with all the funny faces are you some kind of clown or what? Alot of the land around where the female was taken is private and taxes r paid on it. Ian does not pay the taxes or have permission to be there. My point was when somebody shows u a spot u have never been you should have enough respect for them to obey there wishes.

[slowandeasy]

I don't believe Mike wrote this post in order to get the finger pointing game going. Instead I think it was intended to get "them people" to thinking. I thoroughly enjoyed the post! However, as soon as the finger pointing game starts people will clam up. They'll stop using their brain and go into a hole and hide. Let's keep this post alive and classy. Let the folks that have made some bad decisions read it and soak up everyones input. They most likely haven't heard the science behind protecting a population of game animals. Either that or they believe everyone is ot to kill whatever they catch. Let's stimulate their mind into thinking like "we" do and not scare them into hiding and brain shut down. Jmo

Shorty,

I probably shouldn't of said anything to contribute to the topic heading south. Sorry about that Mike. I'm going to get out of here and go guard all of my honey holes. As I am sure no one hunts there, but me.

Take care, Willie

[catdogs]

A direct quote from Montana's Garnet lion study.

"Ultimately population growth is reliant on female survival. Adult female mortality > 20% (natural and harvest combined) is likely to cause a decrease in population level."

[Shorty]

Willie,
No worries! I too am headed out to protect "MY" hunting territory. Lol!

[imchestnut]

I don't know who this is or who you are referring too to be honest with ya buddy. You could tell me your name if ya wanted, maybe I could associate it. I know you don't have your story right and don't owe you or anyone else any sort of explaination.

Most people can look on a map and figure out places to hunt with public land. It isn’t that tough. I had hunted this country a little last season just not very much. I also don’t have “his” spots and “my” spots. I can't remember the last time someone "showed" me a spot that I didn't already know about, had driven through, or scoured on a map thinking, "Man, I should go check that out someday..." I don’t trespass or break the law. When my dad came down here to hunt, I hunted A LOT of country (stuff I had hunted before and stuff I had never hunted) looking for a tom track or, in the last few days he was here, any sort of track.

It’s always funny to me that people think they know what happened in a story when they weren’t there and they have never spoken to me about it. Instead they develop their own version of events and go on the attack.

If I find someone hunting off my baits (which has happened more than once), I move them or out hunt them. To me, that’s a little different but it’s not illegal and I’m not about to be the person telling someone else what they can and can’t do on public land. I don't appreciate it when it happens because of the work that goes into baiting. Not really the same thing as cutting the public roads (that I DO pay taxes on) and finding a track in a canyon I had been in once last year. If a guy never hunted anywhere where someone else was hunting, he would never hunt. Public land, public animals. People need to get over the fact that if they want their own spot, go ahead and buy it, post it and I won't be there. You still wouldn't own the cat, or any animal, that lived on and off the property. The state does.

It was a tom track I turned loose on and the dogs switched mid run. Not that I owe anyone any sort of explanation. If someone has a problem with what I did, I guess I really don’t care. My allegiance here is really to my father who has gone lion-less on multiple hunts, is getting older and has a pretty severe disability. I have left 5-6 toms in trees this year even with people who wanted to kill them. I have killed two lions in 4 years since moving to this area. If I am overharvesting, I guess no one should kill anything anymore. There are alot of guys I know that have knocked 10-15 cats out of trees in just two years. I have taken two in four. I hunted for years in other places and never harvested a single cat.

Feel free to call and talk to me about it though, I’m happy to explain the REAL chain of events here, since I am the one who was there.

Ian Chestnut
(208)313-8699