Thoughts on Montana Reg. 1 permit and Reg. 2 hybrid seasons

catdogs · Post by **catdogs** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:50 pm

Just wanting to hear thoughts and comments on Montanas Reg. 1 permit system and Reg.2 permit hybrid seasons......good, bad or indifferent. Thanks.

hvfd21walker · Post by **hvfd21walker** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:58 am

The hybrid season is a Joke. It is killing way to many cats. You should of seen the people down here in the Bitteroot once it opened up. Im sorry but they harvested way to many females. They are redirecting the blame of low elk population to the lions when the underlying problem is the wolves. In the 90s I know houndsmen that treed the most lions of there lives and elk hunting was at an all time high. This is just my opinion.

cat hntr · Post by **cat hntr** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:09 am

In my opinion the cats have to kill more because the wolves run the lions off thier kills.Here in 121 we had lots of lions before the wolves showed up we also had a good deer herd and an increasing elk population.Now our deer and elk numbers are dropping and our lion population is going down.I cant prove what is doing all the killing but I suspect the wolf is doing more than thier fair share of the eating. I was down in the sula area for a few days I hardly saw anyone in the few drainages I was in I saw mostly female and kitten tracks.I hunted mostly in the 270 area.If fwp is convinced they need to kill a certain amount of cats they will do whatever it takes even if we dont agree with the way they do it.Idont know what the best answer is I like the draw tags but it is hard for fwp to meet thier harvest objectives when most of the cats go unharvested

BIGBLUES · Post by **BIGBLUES** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:11 am

cat hntr wrote:In my opinion the cats have to kill more because the wolves run the lions off thier kills.Here in 121 we had lots of lions before the wolves showed up we also had a good deer herd and an increasing elk population.Now our deer and elk numbers are dropping and our lion population is going down.I cant prove what is doing all the killing but I suspect the wolf is doing more than thier fair share of the eating. I was down in the sula area for a few days I hardly saw anyone in the few drainages I was in I saw mostly female and kitten tracks.I hunted mostly in the 270 area.If fwp is convinced they need to kill a certain amount of cats they will do whatever it takes even if we dont agree with the way they do it.Idont know what the best answer is I like the draw tags but it is hard for fwp to meet thier harvest objectives when most of the cats go unharvested

Right there with you on this one.

Matt_Potter · Post by **Matt_Potter** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:56 am

The southern Bitterroot elk herd is down because of wolves and the fact that FWP allowed so f---ing many cows to be killed. You kill a cow and you kill the calf she is carrying plus the potential calves down the road. FWP flat out blew it on cow tags and deer B tags and are trying to blame it on the predators.

Matt

BIGBLUES · Post by **BIGBLUES** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:40 am

Matt_Potter wrote:The southern Bitterroot elk herd is down because of wolves and the fact that FWP allowed so f---ing many cows to be killed. You kill a cow and you kill the calf she is carrying plus the potential calves down the road. FWP flat out blew it on cow tags and deer B tags and are trying to blame it on the predators.

Matt

I agree 100% with you Matt. Its a shame that more people don't realize that. There was few people that saw this coming ten years ago, but some elders that I know kept telling me it would happen. Well they were right. I don't really know where I stand on any of this.... Wolves have changed the environment and its tough to manage them.

Todd Davis · Post by **Todd Davis** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:41 am

Hey Cody (catdogs) what is your thinking on this??

catdogs · Post by **catdogs** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:12 am

I think it was an absolute shiiit show first week of feb. In region 2. Never seen so many people. I think good toms in permit areas are getting dang hard to find because people are holding out for bigger cats. I think the Bitterroot elk decline has very little to do with lions. And, I think it takes a big dog to weigh a ton!

. What's your thoughts?

Phil Soucy · Post by **Phil Soucy** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:49 pm

Cody, I heard about the rat race from quite a few of those HDs. You should not have to hunt so hard to find a tom, any tom. what is wrong with not filling all of the tags? We fought Jim Williams tooth and nail at our meeting and he still raised them 20%. We are finding fresh lion kills that are gone before the lion even gets a chance to feed. You can't tell me that kittens are not paying a high price for these wolves being here. FWP says thet are all about more oportunity for sportsman, so they legthened the bear season and proposed we raise lion harvest permits by over 300% in some areas. They want to increase hunting oportunities they need to decrease wolf numbers. What part of that can no one at FWP grasp. I am sickupandfed, with people telling me whats really out there, thinking cause they got a degree in biology they are somehow smarter than a guy that burns barrels of sled gas and stares at the snow for days on end.

Terry L. Zink · Post by **Terry L. Zink** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:10 pm

Phil, I was there and I believe we had a choice and we voted. So, either we raised tags above broad by 20%, another words give out more permits to make sure we meet our quota (harvest objectives) or we'd be going to the hybrid season like Region 2 or go back to the old quota and the race. We voted the 300% (no houndsman in the room wanted the 300%) down and went with the 20% over on the permits. We all need to look at sb 260, its a MOGA sponsored bill and what that will do to an lions we have in Regions 1 and 2.

Phil Soucy · Post by **Phil Soucy** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:47 pm

At least they let us vote. I think a hybrid season would be bad for us. The fact is, there is not that much catfood left out there. Killing more cats is not going to bring it back either. We had lots of hoofed game when we had high cat numbers in the 90s. I have mixed feeling about the MOGA sponnsered bill. I think I am going to have to stay out of that fight as 90% of my work comes from outfitted hunts. People that spend money to kill a cat, spend money to mount a cat. I don't know how bad it will be for the resource, but it would be good for some outfitters. If that is a bad thing to you guys I am ok with that, but I for one need outfitters. I hope you can understand. The reality is however that most of those nonresidents drawing are going to go with friends unless someone gets hundreds of guys to apply by soliciting them at sports shows. This already makes it tough to draw for an out of stater.

hvfd21walker · Post by **hvfd21walker** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:43 am

The hybrid season is horrible. It was a shit show down here the first week. Im tired of FWP not taking in consideration of the guys that actually put boots on the ground instead of someone with a degree. They slaughtered cats here. The qouta was way to hi. This is just my opinion.

startingline · Post by **startingline** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:49 am

You bet it was a shit show in region 2 . They killed way to many cats out of theses areas . I been hunting cats for 25 plus years , here in the Bitterroot . Been through tough times back in the 90'S when you couldnt buy a track because of the high quotes back then . Now we are going to see it again . Fwp needs to pull their head out of their ass ,and look whats really the problem . The issue of the deer and elk population isn't going to come back from the cats they killed , they need more wolves killed and less cow tags. I'm not against managing cats at all , but not over kill . Thats all I do all winter is run cats . It is hard to find a good Tom down here , there was mostly females and young juviniles . We'll have to see whats left for next year , I'm hoping I'm wrong on how I think its going to be .

dhostetler · Post by **dhostetler** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:51 am

Yes they increased the tags issued in Region 1 by 20% but if you check the FWP website most of the units have less than half the tags filled. The FWP is wanting more lions killed and increasing the tags by 20% is obviously not achieving there goals. My guess is they are going to go with the Region 2 solution for Region 1 to try to get more lions killed no matter how much we object.

Phil Soucy · Post by **Phil Soucy** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:34 pm

There just are not as many cats as there was a few years ago around here. What I am finding are more toms. Not big old toms, but bigger and older toms than in recent years. For years Jerry Brown ( our biologist) would have an anual meeting in the spring to discuss next years quotas. He hated the race and how for two solid weeks people called him day and night to check in cats. The overkill was a big issue, and he told us that enviromental groups would use that to shut us down. He finally got permits and said this way that would be able to control harvest to the exact number. Wrong. What is wrong with only filling half of the tags. Ever since I started hunting here in the early 90s we have had good cat numbers. We had some old timers that reminded us of those days when you would drive for a week to find a track and the always spoke loud at the meeting to keep the quotas low. Do not let FWP tell you that they need to reach their havest objective in order to properly manage cats. I sometimes wonder if they would be able to sustain healthy rabbit numbers with all the red tape and nonsense that goes on.