Wow... to Cat hunters

[slowandeasy]

Merlo,

First off if you are real . The reason you are getting people excited. Is you happpened on to a couple of dogs that are just doing what they are supposed to do. ( Trail as fast as their nose will allow their running gear to carry them with out causing many checks (loses). And with alot of bobcat hunters it has become obvious to me. Have not been blessed being able to see that in the tree dog world. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

The above coupled with mental toughness and physical toughness. Is the reason most that have been in the game a long time and highly successful are intrested in the running dog crosses. Myself included and am in the process of trying to see how tough they are here. Now most that know me know that I am blunt as hell. But I figure your a big boy and can handle that. So I'll be as clear as mud on these two thing above. Unless you are the guy that stept out of the boat and went for a walk on water. You are not training these things into a hound. Now there are many other things that fit into the above examples that are not trainable. But lets just leave it at this. To some that know the game inside out. There are things that we have no desire to train or untrain!

Now to your credit. So ya don't think I'm a total azzhole. Forty years ago while running a horse into a bucking chute. To ride the so called ruff off . I can rember laughing my azz of about these so called horse whispperes. And saying what a bunch of thiefs they were stealing money at their symposiums from women and other so called men. That did not know the real way to break a horse. Well I have allways been big enough to admit when wrong. And at that time it was time to open mouth insert foot.

If you are that gifted with animals in your comunication I comend you. And I am always looking for things that make the journey more fun. But try and keep it real as unlike the horses. We are talking about some things not only are ya not going to change. But guys that have been at the game that have not stept into the concrete shoes. Have no desire to do so.If you do not believe any of the above. Like Twist said just pony up 15 to 50 years and the light will come on. If you are truly gifted you should be able to cut the time in more than half, unless ya already no it all.


Take care, Willie

[Buddyw]

What do you think?

Poll:.......... Do you think Merlo could be

1-Buddy
2-Dads Dogboy
3-Cobalt
4-other

Why am I the First Choice... I'm barely keeping up with this thread, Everytime I get to look at this site there is another page on this topic..

[slowandeasy]

Because, Sometimes if it seems to good to be true. It normally aint!!!!!



Take care, Willie

[Nolte]

Mondo,

I don't have any that I like on cats. Just a few that are tolerable.


Bird dogs and Hounds might as well be from different planets when it comes to dogs. The majority of what they have in common is that they're both dogs, they eat, they crap. I know a lot of hound guys who have a bird dog or two and most that put a little time into them turn out a pretty nice serviceable hunting dog. Now granted this isn't the upper levels of training or ability. I have seen/hunted with a bunch of different bird dogs from your average Joe and most are pretty poor to say the least. It's a very small amount that have actually impressed me. Some you can't even hardly tolerate to be around them. My point is that your "average" person's knowledge on dog training is not even aware of what capabilities a dog has/hasn't or has even seen a real good bird dog in action. Bird dog training (at basic working levels) in my opinon is light years easier than hound training. You can set up dogs for training scenarios that replicate almost exactly what you will do in the field. You can control those environments and do corrections based on things you can visually see.

A lot of hound training takes place out of your reach of control in an unpredictable environment. You can't confirm what is going on in real time. You might have an idea but you can't visually confirm it much less correct it. It takes a PILE of woods time to interpret what you're hearing into what's actually happening and each dog is unique. I feel it takes me 3 seasons of hunting to really have a dog sorted out with it's strengths, weaknesses and reactions. Some of the stuff you learn isn't what the dog can/can't do at the time, it's how it will respond once something has happened (being clipped by a bad bear is an example).

I think all dogs are a work in progress until they're gone. Some just need a LOT more work. I try to look for dogs I think will naturally have most of what I need. I don't have the time/patience for projects which I don't think will end up where I want them to be.

[Emily]

Glad you did a good job training your hounds. I do a redbone column for American Cooner and would love to see some pix of your redbone at work and some stories about you having fun with him.
Some people are natural dog trainers, but most are not. Most experienced hounds are natural dog trainers, so that's the route a lot of people take. We could all learn from a good trainer, so please do share your successful methods...
As for fast, you sound like you hunted your dogs hard. Dogs that sit in the pen too much are not fast, no matter what their potential. Dogs that are hunted hard are lean and well-muscled and have the stamina to maintain their speed (and learn from their experience). My redbones do very well in field trial races in NY. I don't think they have any special potential, its just that mine are also pets and chase each other around the yard all day when they're not hunting--very easy way to develop speed in a hound. Keeps them in great shape. The only work I have to do is let them out when they want to run around.
I'm not sure what faults you corrected at a young age, but gun shy is obviously not one of them. Not sure how that dog got gun shy, but if you can fix any other fault, why not that one?

[cobalt]

Very good one, Emily. Finally someone with good rationale and less ego. The only thing that merlo has a problem understanding is why such resistence to his success. Here's my opinion. Merlo, if he's being truthful, which I think he is, is a natural dog trainer. He has experience in his past (probably many years) with dog training and more importantly is a student of dog behavior. He is a chef amongst short order cooks and when his quiche turns out good every time without special eggs it makes the common cook skeptical and defensive. Merlo isn't perfect, he knows that. Maybe he screwed the gunshy dog up in one way or another, but he realized it in short order and "goodby gunshy walker hound". He is no different than the rest of us, he is just better at it than most.
At some point he will tire of defending his position against the onslaught of negativity and mediocrity, laziness and complacency. He has been very humble and actually unrattleable in his position and as I read his posts, I can see why he is a good trainer. Patience and level headedness. I hope he continues to interact on this site. He has much to offer yet has much to learn as we all do. That's the nature of the sport. Every dog is different and every hunt is different. It's how one processes and reacts and remembers the info that is encountered that makes for the better trainer.
I know a guy in Oregon who has caught well over 100 cats since Sept. with just 4 dogs and they aren't walker hounds or running dog crosses. They could have been, that doesn't matter. He is a trainer also.
This post reminds me of the "cat rigging" posts last year. Turns out skepticism and contempt of a concept will bite a person in the ass if they're not careful.
Bottom line for me is if you "train" a hound who has a few certain traits (and I believe lots do) by using a process (which will indicate trait potential) and follow through with that process with every dog being treated as an individual, you will end up with a dog you can be proud to own. Some will be better, some lesser, but definitely a game catcher in it's own right. If you don't like the dog for one reason or another, get rid of it.

[al baldwin]

Mondo,

I don't have any that I like on cats. Just a few that are tolerable.


Bird dogs and Hounds might as well be from different planets when it comes to dogs. The majority of what they have in common is that they're both dogs, they eat, they crap. I know a lot of hound guys who have a bird dog or two and most that put a little time into them turn out a pretty nice serviceable hunting dog. Now granted this isn't the upper levels of training or ability. I have seen/hunted with a bunch of different bird dogs from your average Joe and most are pretty poor to say the least. It's a very small amount that have actually impressed me. Some you can't even hardly tolerate to be around them. My point is that your "average" person's knowledge on dog training is not even aware of what capabilities a dog has/hasn't or has even seen a real good bird dog in action. Bird dog training (at basic working levels) in my opinon is light years easier than hound training. You can set up dogs for training scenarios that replicate almost exactly what you will do in the field. You can control those environments and do corrections based on things you can visually see.

A lot of hound training takes place out of your reach of control in an unpredictable environment. You can't confirm what is going on in real time. You might have an idea but you can't visually confirm it much less correct it. It takes a PILE of woods time to interpret what you're hearing into what's actually happening and each dog is unique. I feel it takes me 3 seasons of hunting to really have a dog sorted out with it's strengths, weaknesses and reactions. Some of the stuff you learn isn't what the dog can/can't do at the time, it's how it will respond once something has happened (being clipped by a bad bear is an example).

I think all dogs are a work in progress until they're gone. Some just need a LOT more work. I try to look for dogs I think will naturally have most of what I need. I don't have the time/patience for projects which I don't think will end up where I want them to be.

can/t help but say all who think hound training & bird dog training or stock dog training are equal should read this post twice. Al

[merlo_105]

I dont even know where to start... Here is the time line of the dogs life's My youngest is 16 months I got her as a pup I trained that dog every day it was a natural in its breeding it would take a track and tree on drags and so on... I worked her everyday on all kinds of drags I mean all kinds... I worked her on treeing and locating... I would lay a drag out and then end it 15 to 20 feet from my picked tree I would put a dab of scent 7 feet up... I felt it would help the dog possibly locate later on now if it helped I dont know she was always good about treeing the right tree maybe she was a ok dog Idk... The other two Blueticks I got I picked up from West Virginia They were alittle over a year both been hunted on coon one was also hunted on bear. Well I took them dogs and worked them on obediance. My family has some land back there and on that land is lots of four wheeler paths that loop around and so on... If anyone has been back east they know how open the woods can be with no leaves on the trees so yeah I could keep a visual on the dogs while working them... I would walk coons around the property on a leash jig I made up I would walk them in the manner I felt a cat would walk... I would do a few of these trails and I would time the dogs as they would run and i would cycle the dogs on different trails and I would time them all. i did that to see who could put the heat on and who couldnt. Treeing I did the same way as I did the first Bluetick... I got the dogs turned onto Grawes bobcat scents when they would take them drags in a hurry with out bobbles thats when I started to take them out hunting.. I took them up in the snow time and time again putting them on cats. When they started catching a cat here and there on there own I figured sweet I will run all of them together and I did. If a hound doesnt tree good there are things you can do to get it to tree better and harder. If a dog aint tracking well there are things you can do to get it tracking better lay tracks and where it screws up help it out its the same thing you do when you walk in the woods in the snow when there hunting your helping it out I mean Jeese people. People fix dogs that slick tree all the time its by working it training it. People take a dog that doesnt tree or dont tree hard and get them just lighting up them branches. This stuff happens everyday... I had a mellow work life when I was back east so I had alot of time to hunt and work my dogs... Nothing else to do back there. You can bet your bottom end that you have a pup that wont tree or shows little at the tree its not gonna be a top tree dog left on its own well you just found a fault the pup lacks on tree, well simple fix it and work them on tree before they become a big dog... yeah the loses and them pulling tricks is something they will have to learn but you can play tricks on them while making drags ... I know there is lots im gonna learn in hound hunting no doubt and I dont think I got it all figured out. But hunting with a old timer everyday has helped me grasp how they are like alot of people they dont like change so when they see someone doing something different then that means it aint right... Well I think I might be doing something right my dogs catch cat how long did it take you guys till you had a couple dogs that caught cat??? Probly longer then 2 years... Think about it??? Alot of you probly have seen some top dogs and are in a search for another some of you might have top dogs and alot of you probly do catch cat and what not. So there is something to learn andlisten to from all you. Im just not that guy who is gonna sit and wait or cycle threw dogs while in the mean time im not catching cat cause im only looking for that special dog who does everything so I dont have too. People I like you all even the hater but facts are I have three dogs under two years old that catch cat...

[dwalton]

Merlo: Don't let people get under your skin. I got my first hound at 14. She was 8 m0nths old, I hunted with no one, treed my first coon that year and a bear. Next year I treed my first bobcat. Was it easy no . I learned with them. Nothing I would rather do than train a young dog from the beginning on their own. Is it easy? NO. Do all dogs work out? No. Because you catch a cat does that make them bobcat dogs? No. Some people have worked all their life at training a bobcat dog and can't. Even some of those that think they have. There are bobcat hunters and there are bobcat hunters all levels. The ones that are hard core know what it has cost them to be there. None of us know it all or is the best[ what ever that is]. I feel what people resist is what they don't know. He can't do that ,that's not true, that hasn't worked for me goes on in most every ones head. What you have done ,you have done. What you know or don't know is about ones self. It only effects you if you let it. Which I feel is going in this posting. Its a good post people have to question it, which is really just questioning them selves. You have a lot to learn but guess what so do the rest of us. Tell it the way it is don't defend or justify. Good luck with your hunting. Dewey

[cobalt]

Al and Nolte. While I think training bird dogs and stock dogs is different in basic sense of task, fundamentally, they are very similar. All dogs not only eat and crap, their cognitive thought processes are the same. Pressure and release, and correction and praise is the way to teach, and knowing how much or little a dog needs is the way they learn the fastest and best.
I know several people with stock dogs that are sent deep into nasty, thick, brushy canyons that are trained to bring out ill tempered range cattle right back to the trailer and load them without a word being said. They know their job because they were trained right.
Bird dogs generally work closer, but the dogs are taught to do a specific job, stay clear of off game, hold point, find downed game and retrieve. Again, well trained bird dogs need very little guidance if trained well.
In all three disciplines, stock, bird and hound dogs, the key is to get the dog to do it's task and believe it is under your control at all times. An example of this situation is a dog that minds great when it is 20 feet from you, but at 100 yards the dog feels it is free from your grasp. If one has to tone a dog back every time when it is within hearing, the trainer is failing to train. Some people don't care about this aspect which is fine. It is just one situation of a level of training of many in the making of the whole package.
Does this mean a stock or bird dog trainer is a hound dog trainer? No. Does this mean a hound dog trainer is a stock or bird dog trainer? No. Does it mean that years of training any type of dog successfully will help a person train a successful hound? My opinion is an emphatic YES.

[Nolte]

onslaught of negativity and mediocrity, laziness and complacency.

Some of us call this reality. I have a general rule of believing 0.001% of what a hound guy tells me. Divide that number in half when it's on the internet. Being skeptical has helped me avoid those Nigerian scammers that always seem to find my email inbox. It's situations like this that I've learned when I hear something a little far fetched to put an extra hand on my wallet to protect it.

He is a chef amongst short order cooks and when his quiche turns out good every time without special eggs it makes the common cook skeptical and defensive.

A prett sharp man (my grandfather) told me a long time ago that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken $hit. It doesn't matter how good the chef is. When it comes to a long eared dog that supposedly runs critters picked at random across the country, most aren't salad.

I spent a good amount of time on dogs with pretty papers when I should have just got one from scruffy looking dude with a beat up old truck and some mixed up dogs with battle scars tied out to a barrel. I'm sure this is mostly due to me being a well below average dog trainer. For your average guy/gal reading over this forum who's working their 40+ trying to get through life, they will be much better off getting some dogs from someone that already catching game in their backyard. Just my opinion.

[not color blind]

[quote="cobalt"]Very good one, Emily. Finally someone with good rationale and less ego. The only thing that merlo has a problem understanding is why such resistence to his success.
I know a guy in Oregon who has caught well over 100 cats since Sept. with just 4 dogs and they aren't walker hounds or running dog crosses. They could have been, that doesn't matter. quote]


Cobalt, Imagine if your friend or Merlo had started with some of these other strains of 'wonder dogs'. Imagine how many cats they would catch then....

[not color blind]

[

I spent a good amount of time on dogs with pretty papers when I should have just got one from scruffy looking dude with a beat up old truck and some mixed up dogs with battle scars tied out to a barrel. I'm sure this is mostly due to me being a well below average dog trainer. For your average guy/gal reading over this forum who's working their 40+ trying to get through life, they will be much better off getting some dogs from someone that already catching game in their backyard. Just my opinion.

YOU SURE NAILED THAT ONE NOLTE!

[kordog]

i just picked up a pack of maine coon cats .they dont even have to be trained being born naturally cat minded .exsposure to game is all i will need.WOW! you cat hunters .fluffy, tigger,pounce,and tom are gonna show ya how its done.i just traded in my ford f150 for a prius too. they can all ride right right up in the front seat while you guys ride around with your box full of duds that have to be trained .WOW WOW WOW WOW.

[petethedog2]

Hhahahahahaha. There are those that can, and those that can't. Those that can't far out number those that can and talk loud until they believe they can. Ever notice the loudest talkers in a bar aren't the ones that can? X2 Merlo, it is the same in the horse world as the dog world......the amount of talk (dick swinging) is unreal. I have a "mixed" pack, with scars, (bluetick, plott, blackmouth cur, catahoula, black/tan) and they hunt like maniacs AND listen. And they DO catch bobcat. Dogs are born not made? Really? Sounds like a breeder selling pups. Hhahahahhahaa