Define "Brains" in a Hound?

[Dads dogboy]

Jon,

I do not want to take this thread in a different direction, so I will be careful with this reply to your above Post.

We agree with everything in your 1st Paragraph.

As for the 2nd Para, we heartily disagree....with proper selection of Mating Pairs in a closely related line you should not be "Giving up" any one Trait while gaining or building on another! Much more work needs to be done on which Traits are "Sex" related. Brains or Intelligence seem to be related to the Female side of a Mating, at least that is what is indicated in Dad's Hounds to date.

Warner5 writes"I agree that a smart dog will make a better bobcat dog. But it needs to be a confident smart dog. Some dogs seem to be to smart for their own good."

Jon this is where the Houndsman has to be smarter/more experienced than the Hound....when they are in your or JC's pen or truck they are in a good place!

[dwalton]

Some of us has hunted with that top, once in a life time dog. Once you have you see what you are breeding for. Brains is at the top of my list as to what I want in a top bobcat dog but the top dogs have it all, brains, drive,conformation, heart and disposition. That said I hunt what I have.Some are better at one thing than another but all has and will catch a bob on there own. Are they perfect no but that does not not stop one from breeding for that perfect dog. It is hard to get that perfect dog. Not so hard to get that pack that hunts together perfectly. Dewey

[NorWester]

Not so hard to get that pack that hunts together perfectly.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

[hudson]

When a dog displays brains to me that means a dog showing something that can't be taught. The majority of dogs can be taught to handle using the right methods for an individual dog. If a dog handles well, loads, doesn't need to be leashed etc this is displaying obedience. Does it mean a dog has brains?
If I was talking about a dog having brains then that dog is showing me something that I couldn't teach it. The only way to explain what I mean is by example so here goes. If a dog is chasing game (that's not in sight) and the game crosses a stream/ running water etc. when that game crosses the water oil from it fur/skin drifts down stream. At this point a dog will 1) run down stream voicing and a result being a lost chase or 2) the dog will run up stream cross the water and continue down stream on the opposite side until it cuts the marks again this displays brains in a dog. In a thread I started I talked about hounds with age not giving voice when cold trailing because the dog has come to realise that he is not pushing the quarry forward by alerting it with voice. ( I would expect a dog to voice during a chase). That would be another example where the dog has taught itself something.
Lastly I'm yet to own a dog with my opinion of brains but have seen a hand full that have had brain.

[Bearkiller]

How is anyone supposed to take this thread seriously when you have people giving credibility to the idea that border collies are smarter than their owners? Later on, they are smarter than 8 year olds. Whoever wrote that must know some dumb 8 year olds and ranchers. Then we have a dog coming and getting her owner and taking him 5 miles. The problem with these philosophy threads is shining bright here. I am under the impression that this forum is supposed to be grounded in reality. Looks like the theoretical hounding crew has taken over and scared off the guys giving the real world advice. I used to regularly send people to this forum to learn and read. Not anymore.......

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[slowandeasy]

Take care, Willie

[david]

How is anyone supposed to take this thread seriously when you have people giving credibility to the idea that border collies are smarter than their owners? Later on, they are smarter than 8 year olds. Whoever wrote that must know some dumb 8 year olds and ranchers. Then we have a dog coming and getting her owner and taking him 5 miles. The problem with these philosophy threads is shining bright here. I am under the impression that this forum is supposed to be grounded in reality. Looks like the theoretical hounding crew has taken over and scared off the guys giving the real world advice. I used to regularly send people to this forum to learn and read. Not anymore.......

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I know this is gonna be hard for everyone to believe, but I have offended a bear hunter.

Bear Killer, I bet you kill bears. Just guessing.

First, I would like to say it seems a little extreme to boycott the whole board, Killer, just because of me. I noticed your references were to things I had written. Tell your friends they are safe here if they stay away from the bobcat hunting section. If they must come to the bobcat section. Just tell them to avoid the posts by "david". They should be fine. It is still a great site to learn stuff if you stay away from my theoretical, philosophical posts.

But would like to let you know I have been around good bear dogs all my hounding life. I have had bear hunters from 4 or 5 states lining up for puppies from my dogs. My wife and I had to watch them fight in my front yard over said pups. I have been asked by bear hunters to name any price on a dog and they would pay what ever it was.

I found those dogs through study, theory and philosophy. But those dogs look like complete idiots compared to another dog I found through theory and philosophy. She was 1/4 Border Collie. Even though I had never owned a Border Collie, I put some credence in the words of others regarding those dogs. I formed a theory about my bobcats and the dogs needed. I traveled across many miles and states and bought this mixed bred mutt based on theories and philosophies I had formed. She showed me that for twenty some years I had not even been close to what is theoretically and philosophically possible within the canine world for catching bobcats. Theory became reality once again. You can ask Einstein and most great inventors about the role of theory and philosophy in their own accomplishments.

I cant speak from experience about a border collie that could identify 300 items by the name of them. I cant say from experience that they have the intellegence and understand vocabulary on an 8 year old human level. I read all that in a National Geographic magazine. I find such things fascinating. I figured maybe some on else would find it fascinating also. So I shared what I had read. It is there for dreamers like me that have never found a perfect bobcat dog, but who like to dream about one and form theories and philosophies as to how we might get one step closer to that perfect bobcat dog.

I believe you will see great advances in our bobcat dogs over the next 20 years if we are still allowed to hunt them with dogs by then. And the folks making those innovative advances will be those who formed theories based on their philosophies, and then experimented to find out what is possible within the canine world.

Good luck killing bears, Bear Killer. I wish you the best bear dog ever.

[david]

I think this is a great thread and that much could be learned by studying it. I think probably more can be learned about people than dogs, but that is important for us. We need to know how to filter information. I think it is great that people who are not bobcat hunters can give input. I think it is interesting that the highest percentage of input in this thread that doubts the importance of intelligence, or the capacity for intelligence in bobcat dogs on here are not straight bobcat hunters and in at least two cases I am aware of, do not hunt bobcat at all.

I enjoy their input and learn from it, because it comes from a very different perspective than my own. It gives me a chance to evaluate my own thought from the perspective of some one who uses dogs to do a different job that what I use dogs for.

[al baldwin]

How is anyone supposed to take this thread seriously when you have people giving credibility to the idea that border collies are smarter than their owners? Later on, they are smarter than 8 year olds. Whoever wrote that must know some dumb 8 year olds and ranchers. Then we have a dog coming and getting her owner and taking him 5 miles. The problem with these philosophy threads is shining bright here. I am under the impression that this forum is supposed to be grounded in reality. Looks like the theoretical hounding crew has taken over and scared off the guys giving the real world advice. I used to regularly send people to this forum to learn and read. Not anymore.......

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Bearkiller. need to say I doubt, that hound traveled five mile from a bear tree then lead the hunter back. Those kind of stories in my opinion sell books and maybe pups. But will not say for sure, I was not there. You will always have to believe some and leave some to doubt. Al

[Ker_man]

Well if I was smart I would probably delete all of this before posting......but here are a few statements that have to do with this thread and a bit of the ''Bobcat Section''

David I've never met you but I like you.

I'm a bit perplexed by some of the signals you have sent out in this thread. Intelligence in hounds, be it bobcat, bear, coon, coyote, fox or squirrel is (has) to do with hounds. Collies? fine by me. You were with ''lol'' telling anyone that might mention bear as an example, to blow off.
I got a kick out of the ''Bobcat Gods'' statement Larry
Many of the bobcat hunters at heart have to hunt something else by necessity due to having lost the right to hunt them with hounds......like some of the cat hunters have lost the right to hunt bears and cougars. Most of the houndsmen will run what they can when they loose one game they will switch. (continued)

[not color blind]

My dog has been getting shit for barking.he barks cuzz he is sure he is starving. He does not like getting in trouble...today he was pawing the dog dish instead of barking...he has also asked to be fed by gnashing or chomping his teeth......leopard walker cross.

Interesting, my one female eats her own poop.... Man does she have brains, she doesn't want her 'master' to have to clean up after her...

[Ker_man]

There will be more and more guys on that will have lost a lot in Calif. but will be cat hunters at heart or move.
Look at the houndsmen that make up the associations that defend and maintain the rights to hunt, it's the group(numbers) that give strength and not always the hardest hunters or top of the food chain that go to the key meetings etc.

This is not only directed at David and I mean no offence to anyone.
I very much like the bobcat section and spend more time here reading along because of all the deep thoughts about hounds, tracking, cold trailing and dog work that seems to be the a common part of this section.

Very intrigued by the trail/tree crosses.
Cheers, Terry

Note it took so long to type this that I missed David's post above but this is what I wrote.

[dwalton]

Do I see a pattern here bear hunters are not concern about brains bobcat hunters are. Some people say you can look at a mans dog and tell a lot about him???? Their are a few bobcat hunters out here that quit bear hunting many years before we lost our bear season. People that know me have heard me make this statement { when bear hunters grow up they become bobcat hunters]. For some of us bobcat hunting is the ultimate game for hounds. I guess we just like the challenge. If bear hunting was all I had to do with hounds I would probably hunt them also. Dewey

[al baldwin]

If we remain so judgmental, against bear hunters, how can we ever expect to out vote the anti/s? Al

[Trueblue]

People that know me have heard me make this statement { when bear hunters grow up they become bobcat hunters].

I heard it a little different,(when bear hunters grow old they become bobcat hunters.)