Define "Brains" in a Hound?

[Matt_Potter]

A dog with brains and drive figures out stuff you can't teach. I grew up with hounds and am getting back into it. But I took a long break in the middle with pointing dogs ( not very different from hounds) with pointers the ones that can pin a running pheasant are the rare ones you can't teach it no way no how. When a bird breaks and runs the dog has to circle down wind get out in front of the bird (out of sight and scent range) and pin it. If the bird breaks again they have to do the process all over again until the bird tires and holds. The good ones can read the bird and never push too hard.

My best female was a master I once watched her break point and pin 10 times, in wheat stubble, before the bird held long enough for my fat assed client to get there.

One thing for sure brainy dogs get brainier the more game you put them on. The good ones don't tend to make the same mistake twice.

By the way short hairs make pretty fair bear dogs - I've put more than a few bears up trees with them.

Matt

[dwalton]

Trueblue: I like the way you think. I think? Just maybe it is the same. Take care Dewey

[jed]

Tell me if this is "brains" or not, I don't know. I have been impressed many times by this little female and she is constantly teaching me something, if I take a moment to observe and trust her. Many times over her 9 year life span have I had to rethink what I thought I knew about training dogs. She has made me look a fool, or affirmed my rookie status, many a time over the 8 years she's been here.

Anyway. . . .back in the days of telemetry collars, I had a habit of calling my dogs off the tree and heading back to the truck, then removing collars on the tailgate before proceeding home for the day/night. I would take the 4-6 dirty, stinky, wet collars and place them on the floorboard of my pick-up to dry, close to the heater. With a dedicated "hound wagon", I would often let my dogs run loose while I cleaned kennels. Often times I would open the truck door to listen to the stereo while doing chores and the dogs had learned to love the truck and their dog box as it meant a chance to go hunting. A simple "load up" command was all it took after I opened each kennel and we were off.

On more than one occasion, while cleaning this individual female's kennel, I'd let her out, scoop the poop and then have to search for her before moving on to the next. I would find her inside the dog box, in the back of the pick-up, with her telemetry collar that she had retrieved from the drivers side floor board. . . . just laying there with a calm, collected look on her face. She wouldn't come out either, she wanted to go hunting and knew the truck and her yellow collar were an integral part of the process.

I don't know if these things are taught through repetition, innate traits, or perceptive on the part of the hound but as a side note - this dog came to me when she was about 10 months old from a buddy in Wisconsin. She had grown up running free on a lake peninsula with an owner who spent an incredible amount of time with his dogs, lived in a tent, and gave her every opportunity to learn. In my opinion, early exposure is key and hard to replace or supplement for sure! She is due to drop a litter of pups in about two weeks and I'll be watching closely for a couple special female pups that seem to take after their momma!!

[Bearkiller]

Matt, I think most hounds men confuse brains and drive. Now I have been around some dogs that I would consider unteachable and clearly just aren't that smart but what I have witnessed is that hounds men say "oh wow! Look what sparky just did. He's one smart SOB. When in reality, the dog just didn't give up. Give me that trait over brains any day.



David, I have no issue with you, per say. I have found in my 18 years of running hounds that people who generally elevate dogs over the hounds man are usually trying to sell dogs. Which you have stated you do. That automatically rules out an unbiased opinion. Are some dogs better than others? Absolutely! Is it genetic? Sometimes. Are there strains of dogs that tend to carry certain traits stronger than other strains. For sure. Do we need to reinvent the wheel? I have my doubts. I have a hard to believing that a single man in a lifetime is going to accomplish more than thousands of years of selective breeding. Most hounds men aren't single species oriented. For various reasons, most hounds men hunt whatever is legal to hunt at the time. Where I live we have a month long cat season with a 4 cat bag limit. That would make it tough to train and run "bobcat dogs". I have a lot of respect for bobcats. They are, in my opinion, the hardest critter to consistently run and catch with hounds. I have never ran grey fox. So I am not, as some have implied by my name, strictly a bear hunter. I also do consider myself open minded when it comes to critical thinking. I even have a job where I get paid for my brains and not my brawn. So I'm not saying don't try new things. But it's hard to take threads like this seriously when people start talking nonsense. Your border collie that news 300 words ect was, I'm certain, intensely trained. My 8 year old learns all sorts of new words by herself. She brings them home almost every day. Some are fine, others not so much. Now you also stated or implied that some hounds and many border collies are smarter than their owners. Now having met hundreds of hounds men, my initial reaction is that it might be true. But when one actually THINKS about that statement it's absurd. I'm not offended but if this is actually supposed to be a pseudo hypothesis based on science and/or FACTS, you can't throw the BS in there and expect people to take it seriously. That's all my point was.

[Matt_Potter]

Matt, I think most hounds men confuse brains and drive. Now I have been around some dogs that I would consider unteachable and clearly just aren't that smart but what I have witnessed is that hounds men say "oh wow! Look what sparky just did. He's one smart SOB. When in reality, the dog just didn't give up. Give me that trait over brains any day.

I agree that we give our dogs more credit than is do more often than not - heck we do the same with our kids.

But dogs can and do problem solve and it is the combination of drive and brains that make the best ones shine.

The beauty of bird dogs is you get to watch them figure it out. There is no guessing if the dog changed is behavior to solve a problem it's right there in front of you.

Matt

[Matt_Potter]

Matt, I think most hounds men confuse brains and drive. Now I have been around some dogs that I would consider unteachable and clearly just aren't that smart but what I have witnessed is that hounds men say "oh wow! Look what sparky just did. He's one smart SOB. When in reality, the dog just didn't give up. Give me that trait over brains any day.

I agree that we give our dogs more credit than is do more often than not - heck we do the same with our kids.

But dogs can and do problem solve and it is the combination of drive and brains that make the best ones shine.

The beauty of bird dogs is you get to watch them figure it out. There is no guessing if the dog changed it's behavior to solve a problem it's right there in front of you.

Matt

[cobalt]

Very well put, killer. One doesn't need a Phd. in dog psycology to get it.
Anthropomorphism means placing human qualities on non-human subjects. There is a lot of speculation when we analyze what is going on in a dogs mind.
Style and drive is what separates the quality of individual dogs IMO. Most all hounds that I've owned and hunted have smarts of some degree or another. As long as the dog has aptitude to be taught, I feel I can teach it to hunt with a degree of success, if I do my part. The degree definitely depends on the quality of the dogs genetics. Willfulness is a variable that can make it easier or harder to mold and build the dog. A good handler and trainer adjusts to the temperament of the animal. If a dog is mishandled, the success of the desired result can be seriously decreased even if the dog has all the potential it needs to be great (even brains).
I think border collies are smart in their own way. People tend to associate compliance with intelligence. Border collies are apt to learn because that is their M.O. (Modus operandi)- method of operating or functioning. They are geared to focus on their handler and are stimulated to react to actions made, all because they were bred for a specific purpose (cause and effect). This is why they are the most mentally screwed up dogs as well as possibly the smartest. Hounds vs collies as a comparision is like beef cows vs dairy cows. Similar but very different, both mentally and physically.

[Dads dogboy]

OK Folks,

I have purposely remained on the Sidelines for much of this conversation on this very good topic!

But I really have to Question just how much “inter-action” make that "Training" some Hound Hunters actually have/do with their Hounds.

Now after consulting the Dictionary on the Term “Anthropomorphism” there is more in the definition than “Placing human qualities on non-human subjects.” Yet nowhere does Webster’s say that an animal may or may not be Intelligent!

Now awhile back I posted on the possibilities the New Garmin ALPHA brings to Houndsmen by being a Long Range Communication tool. I mentioned having seen what Dog Trainers within the Retriever, Sheepdog, and Obedience disciplines can do with whistles and hand signals. Now not every Canine that these Handlers get makes the grade, just like not every Hound will make a Top Hound in pursuing its Masters Game of Choice.

Yet some number of the Canine’s exposed these Disciplines respond exceptionally well, just as some Hounds figure out the Bobcat game quicker than others…..what is the difference in those Dogs/Hounds that do and those that don’t?

One explanation that has been thrown out for our consideration in place of Intelligence is “Wifulness”, another is “Drive” is what causing some Hounds to appear Intelligent.

Well, in my short life (57 yrs) and Dad’s (83 yrs) we have seen some very hard driving, very willing Hounds who would appear to run Game very Hard, making it seem to the uninformed or inexperienced that they were TOP Hounds….yet at a check they NEVER ever came up with the Game. They were WILLING to be “Me Too” Hounds and DRIVE the Game until they literally ran out of BRAINs to continue the Track!

Now a Poster was giving Ole David a hard time for saying that there have been cases of a Hound or even Hounds being SMARTER than the owner……I would say that this statement has lots of Truth to it and has been well documented in all areas of the Country in all Hound Hunting no matter the Game!

[Bearkiller]

One explanation that has been thrown out for our consideration in place of Intelligence is “Wifulness”, another is “Drive” is what causing some Hounds to appear Intelligent.

I never said drive and brains were mutually exclusive. I said a lot of hound hunters confuse the 2. I have been around some DUMB dogs. I have also been around what appeared to be pretty smart dogs. I think drive or the desire to "stick it out" is more often the case when someone think their dog is super smart. I had an old red tick that was a track straddling fool. He was GOOD at grinding out a track. There are occasions where he could line out a tough lion or bobcat track the other dogs couldn't because he put his nose in the NEXT track, every time. (It sucked on jumped races, for the most part) This would/could give a less experienced hound hunter watching his Garmin or listening to the race the impression he was smarter than the rest of the dogs. No, he was honestly a pretty dumb dog. But he had no quit and always looked for the next "spot".

Now a Poster was giving Ole David a hard time for saying that there have been cases of a Hound or even Hounds being SMARTER than the owner……I would say that this statement has lots of Truth to it and has been well documented in all areas of the Country in all Hound Hunting no matter the Game!

That would be me. I stand by statement and would apply it to you. If you're making a joke, I get it. And as I stated earlier, I can see where some could think that. However, deductive reasoning doesn't, itself, make an animal smart. I agree that some dogs have that ability. But until someone can show some PROOF that a dog has an IQ of over 70 (legally retarded in most places) the statement is absurd. Honestly. Really. Smarter than their owners? Could there owners be stupid? For sure! Could they be very ignorant? Absolutely! The border collie mentioned was, I promise you, very highly trained. Not "joe" hound sitting in some dudes kennel. Have a nice day.

[horshur]

with dogs loose in yard throw a big chunk of meat into kennel.one dog tries to go thru the fence the other uses the door......which one is the smarter dog????

[slowandeasy]

I believe this has gotten above my IQ. And I must confess I am the one that the hounds are smarter than.


Take care, Willie

[mark]

I wouldnt worry to much about it Willie, i have seen some people with pretty high IQ's that didnt seem to smart to me. I think we may have one in the white house now.

[twist]

I also have seen some very intelligant people ,me not one of them that did not have enough common sense to shake a stick at. The houndsmen that learns to think like a hound to some extent will be for sure the better handler and alsoget more out of his hounds. So is the statement some dogs are smarter than some humans Hell Yes. Don't think David said IQ in his initial post, I would much rather haul my hounds around rather than a lot of people out in this old world. Andy

[al baldwin]

Is it possible, some cat hunters can be confusing a bred in track style as brains? If cat hounds were as smart as we think, would they eat every pile of cat scat they find? Now please don/t be offended these are just my thoughts, I could be way off. Al

[LarryBeggs]

When a calf is born and he stands up on his wobbly legs and starts butting his mama to get her milk to drop. I think all of us here would say that is genetic or instinct. I do think animals can learn and they certainly appear to learn a lot quicker that some humans. I think a lot of what we see that appears to be problem solving is similar to this. A well bred cat dog is going to appear to solve a lot of problems because a cat throws a lot of them out there. That is what they have been bred to do. In my initial post I left room for 5 % or less reasoning . That's because I think there is something there but not reasoning like humans do. But something different completely. I don't think we give enough credit to the breeding and training side of things. Just my opinion, but what do I know. I am just a dumb unedjumacated bear hunter. What I say needs to be filtered. You were right David this post does teach us a lot about people.