Define "Brains" in a Hound?

[oneguy828]

Exactly my thoughts Al. Pointers hold birds while labs flush them. Both doing the same job
which one has more "brains"? You can't answer that question in my opinion because they are not comparable because of styles. Hounds are the same they are bred for specific types of track styles and traits which often get interpreted as brains. Dogs that sneak out, or keep there mouth shut and catch alone it seems often get labeled with this "brains" thing too. Mouthy dogs get labeled dumb or a something along those lines because they bark in the same place to many times. That's labeling traits as "brains" and both may be game catchers. You just lean towards the one you enjoy hunting and have the most success with. I have very little experience in hounds but in my limited experiences this seems to be the case.

[david]

Brains is the dogs ability to remember 1 thing in the past and apply it to future endeavors.

Guys talk about running dogs who tree. Yes we breed dogs that have shown the ability to tree, however its not something they normally do until they have been hunted a few seasons, caught enough game, and been around other dogs that tree game, then the intelligence takes over and 'ok this game isnt here, scents gone, let me look up, or down' It takes intelligence for a dog that not bred to tree hard instictivly to tree. on an off topic, probably to ruffle som feathers i feel running dogs that tree are much more accurate tree dogs, not as far as finding the tree first, but as in not false treeing, have yet to see a running dog false tree a fox or cat or coon for that matter, but have seen tons of tree dogs false tree game.
Perk

I got to meet this man today in Virginia, and see his dogs. What a treat that was for me. I still think that his first sentence above just sums it up for me.

And I think his next paragraph is the essence of my feelings regarding the balance between instinct and intelligence. Of course we need dogs with certain instincts. But I feel the reason a number of the really remarkable bobcat dogs seemed slower starting was this theory: They are able to overcome instinct with intelligence. And intelligence just plain takes longer to develop. Bear dog instincts will be counterproductive at times for catching bobcats. Coon dog instincts at times will be counterproductive for catching bobcats. Fox dog instincts will at times be counterproductive for catching bobcats. Herd dog or bird dog instincts will at times be counterproductive for catching bobcats. For these dogs to become great bobcat dogs, they will have to overcome these counterproductive instincts with intelligent decision making (problem solving).

I have owned dogs whose instincts were so remarkably powerful they needed almost no training for bear or coon except to teach them what they were not allowed to run. Those dogs went to anybody and everybody and made way above average coon dogs and bear dogs. And i say with no hesitation that 100% of them made dogs. (I say it knowing some will not believe it). I am not interested in owning or selling that type dog. The last one I sold was about 28 years ago. They were the only dogs I ever made money on. But I am not interested in ever owning another one. They could not overcome instinct with intelligence.

That is why I believe Perk's dogs NEVER false tree. They are not doing it from instinct. They are doing it out of intelligence. They had to LEARN that some of their game climbs some of the time.

[david]

David, I have no issue with you, per say. I have found in my 18 years of running hounds that people who generally elevate dogs over the hounds man are usually trying to sell dogs. Which you have stated you do. That automatically rules out an unbiased opinion.

Bearkiller, just for the record, I have not sold a dog in over 7 years. Don't know but it might be 7 or 70 years before I sell another one. But a couple dogs I sold 8 years ago or more have been talked about on this thread already. I am proud of the dogs, proud they went to such hard working hunters/breeders, and proud they have pups all over the USA now.

You can call it conditioning, or drive, desire, what ever you want to call it. I call it intelligence and the ability to solve problems. And it really does not even matter to me what I myself call it. What matters is sometimes it makes me smile real big when I see it. Sometimes it makes me scratch my head and wonder how on earth she got that accomplished. And yes, there is not a shadow of a doubt that these dogs and their half sister knew more about bobcat behavior than I did. There is not a snowballs chance in Hawaii that I could have predicted a bobcats behavior as they could. I would even go so far as to say I did not even understand my own emotions and behavior as well as they did; or predict my next move as well as they did at times. Many times I have felt like I was dumber than my dog

And as far as human language, remember this is a foreign language to a dog. It is not even within their own species. I know I studied Spanish a few years and I doubt very much I could name you 300 things in Spanish, or even identify them when some one else spoke the word. And Spanish is spoken by my own species.

I make no claim to being unbiased. But just so you know, I am not selling dogs.

The deffinition I've developed in my time and experience hunting bobcats has lead me to believe that a bobcat dog is one dog that can catch nearly every cat you put it on with no help from another dog and minimal invovement from it's owner. I've had several that were/are pretty good and one that was phenominal (Rachel, I bought her at 2 1/2 years old from David Peightal).

Tell me if this is "brains" or not, I don't know. I have been impressed many times by this little female and she is constantly teaching me something, if I take a moment to observe and trust her. Many times over her 9 year life span have I had to rethink what I thought I knew about training dogs.

On more than one occasion, while cleaning this individual female's kennel, I'd let her out, scoop the poop and then have to search for her before moving on to the next. I would find her inside the dog box, in the back of the pick-up, with her telemetry collar that she had retrieved from the drivers side floor board. . . . just laying there with a calm, collected look on her face. She wouldn't come out either, she wanted to go hunting and knew the truck and her yellow collar were an integral part of the process.

I don't know if these things are taught through repetition, innate traits, or perceptive on the part of the hound but as a side note - this dog came to me when she was about 10 months old from a buddy in Wisconsin. She had grown up running free on a lake peninsula with an owner who spent an incredible amount of time with his dogs, lived in a tent, and gave her every opportunity to learn. In my opinion, early exposure is key and hard to replace or supplement for sure! She is due to drop a litter of pups in about two weeks and I'll be watching closely for a couple special female pups that seem to take after their momma!!

[david]

...Just my opinion, but what do I know. I am just a dumb unedjumacated bear hunter. What I say needs to be filtered. You were right David this post does teach us a lot about people.

Well if I was smart I would probably delete all of this before posting......but here are a few statements that have to do with this thread and a bit of the ''Bobcat Section''

David I've never met you but I like you.

I'm a bit perplexed by some of the signals you have sent out in this thread. Intelligence in hounds, be it bobcat, bear, coon, coyote, fox or squirrel is (has) to do with hounds. Collies? fine by me. You were with ''lol'' telling anyone that might mention bear as an example, to blow off.
I got a kick out of the ''Bobcat Gods'' statement Larry
Many of the bobcat hunters at heart have to hunt something else by necessity due to having lost the right to hunt them with hounds......like some of the cat hunters have lost the right to hunt bears and cougars. Most of the houndsmen will run what they can when they loose one game they will switch. (continued)

I read you guys loud and clear. You know, I am not that great of a person to begin with. If you see anything you like in me, just give thanks to Jesus even if you don't believe in him. Without my desire to please Him, I know for sure I could not stand myself and I can be pretty sure you could not stand me either. But I have this dark side that I don't quite have broke to ride. I know I have come across in ways that I would not want to be treated. I am sorry to have done that to you guys. I have some pretty strong feelings about bear dogs and bear hunters that wont go away. I never had bad feelings about people from Mexico until a couple of them tried to kill me one night. It could have been a couple people from any where, but it took me years to feel OK about Spanish speaking people after that. It just so happens ALL my experiences with bear dogs bobcat hunting have been worse than negative. It also just so happens that I have had some hard to forget negative experiences with the men who love such dogs. I should have gotten over it, but I haven't. It is extremely dark and wrong for me to take all that out on every bear dog and every owner of bear dogs. If I should ever get past what I know about bear dogs, it will be a miracle, and again you can thank Jesus. It hasn't happened yet though. Maybe I am not ready for such a painful cleansing.

any way, it's not you. It's me. Obviously.

[LarryBeggs]

David, I am sorry I used gods word as a weapon. I am sure he doesn't approve. I obviously also lied when I said I wasn't offended. Only one person has ever been perfect and it wasn't you or I. I struggle when people put animals on the same plane as humans. I don't think this is scriptural and it is also something the anti hunting movement does . They also paint all hunters with a broad brush as being bad. 95% of us on this website have been bear hunters at one time or another. Including yourself. So I didn't quite get where that was coming from. As far as the ability of a dog to reason. You and I will have to agree to disagree. Take care, Larry

[curtj]

Wow, Seems to me the trainer needs to be smart enough to know what he has in a dog, and hunt them hard enough to get them to get them to there full potential. One thing i have learned from hunting with hounds for 39 years, is what suits me, may not suit you. I've seen good dogs in all sizes and breeds. Combination dogs, and straight cat dogs. Dogs are like people, none are perfect. Some just fewer faults than others. A good dog is like a good friend. There's less b.s to put up with and you enjoy the time you spend with them.

[david]

Isn't it wierd how some people always choose the best puppy out of a litter? Kind of makes you go "Hmmmmm"...
This is a person who pays attention to the development of that puppy's brain by forcing those impulses to fire down the neuro-pathways in that little brain and form those bridges to thought while they are in the formative weeks and months. There is only one chance for a child to form these neuro-pathways (while he is a child). There is only one chance for a puppy to form these neuro-pathways (while he is a puppy). If you think dogs can just catch up later, you will be buying your best young dogs from someone who disagrees with you.

You can see it a young age. Perk

I agree, you can see it at a young age. But you can develop it or stifle it at a young age. In my strong opinion, if you don't develop it at a young age, the dog will never be all it could have been. And the dog will lose capacity for intelligence in the same way a child kept in a closet will lose it if it is not stimulated and developed.

[dwalton]

I agree that it is critical how a pup is raised. There are things that he/she learns at a very young age and at "adolescent" that makes them top dogs. { Now I am putting human attributes on a dog. Maybe that is because I am a human and don't think like a dog}. I won't get a dog from anyone that is not a young pup because of the holes that I see in their up bringing. Curt You hit the nail on the head. It is a combination of many factors that make a great dog or even a good dog. The hunter, breeding and if the dog suits you. Their are many opinions as to what a good dog is. Maybe because we all have an opinion or is just that we all think our opinion is the right one? Human nature is to get agreement, maybe it is better to have a good debate? Each to their own, good hunting no matter what you hunt. Trust me on this one THE BOBCAT GODS HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT. You know I believe their is only one god and his son that maybe had it all figured out. The rest of us are just human. Have a good one Dewey

[slowandeasy]

Quote : You know I believe their is only one god and his son that maybe had it all figured out.

HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT: FIXED IT FOR YA

Take care, Willie

[Dads dogboy]

Define "Brains" in a Hound?

That is the Question!

Perk wrote: "Brains is the dogs ability to remember 1 thing in the past and apply it to future endeavors."

What Perk writes, to Dad and I is the Nucleus of Intelligence!

To REASON out a problem, that is what makes a SPECIAL Hound! These Hounds are darn sure rare. These Hounds carry the Intelligence thing even further.

We have seen a SPECIAL Hound stop when road hunting and Pose....Stop with its head in the air.....moving it slightly from side to side......is the Hound catching a faint smell on the wind?

Suddenly the Hound leaves the road going 1/4 to 1/2 mile then opens running a Track that other very GOOD Hounds never had a clue was there.

Now was it INSTINCT....maybe.

Was it BREEDING.....sure, some of it is as the Mother, Grand Mother, and Great Grand Mother of this Hound were seen doing the same thing.

Was it an exceptional nose which caused the Hound to catch a smell the others could not smell.....partly. But what caused the Hound to head out into the wind, albeit a very slight breeze, through heavy cover, and go upwind to find where a Cat was hiding.

Could it have been REASONING that going into the Wind would allow the Hound to smell the Cat Scent better.

Could it have been an Extra dose of Intelligence that caused these same Hounds, who were normally excited to go Hunting, Hounds who would be at the Gate jumping up and down barking wanting to go Hunting on most nights, would also be laying on top of their Boxes and have to be asked repeatedly to "come on" on nights when the "Scenting Conditions" turned out to be POOR to Very BAD!

Now I/We are not attempting to give Human Souls to Hounds, but varies degrees of Intelligence is found in other Species, and has been Scientifically documented many times!
Texas A&M spent many of your tax dollars in the 1960s proving that Crows can count to three.

There are many other happenings in Dad's 55 years with Bobcat Hounds and many more with Coon, Squirrel, Quail, and Rabbit Dogs over the years where REASONING was exemplified.

Now the Hounds, and there are some in every Breed and Strain, who have that little Extra dose of "Brains" truly are SPECIAL!

[al baldwin]

Well I saw a young hound today catch a scent in the wind and go find a deer. Was that brains? Have seen numerous hounds in the past catch a scent in the air and travel out a ways, to find a cat track, or a laid up coon in a rats nest. I don/t think it was ever a half mile maybe a couple hundred yards. I don/t believe that showed one hound had more brains than the other pack members, because the hounds seem to take turns catching a scent in the wind others had missed. I sure have never seen any hounds I have owned giving any indications they do not want to go hunting because scenting conditions were bad. But heck I never heard much talk of scenting conditions being bad when the hounds could not close the gap on a bobcat, we thought the cat was dog wise and just eased along ahead, making for a tough job for the hounds to get a good jump. Now you folks may be spot on with your thinking, but if I don/t give you my thoughts, this subject would be boring. Thanks Al

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Al,

It is always good to have a “Devil’s Advocate” on any subject to keep one athinking!

Now I come to the place with this Topic, Defining Brains in Hounds, that I have to recall a Scene from a John Wayne Movie….it is amazing that so many of my “Life’s Lessons” find their genesis from the Dukes works. In the director’s cut of “The Alamo” there is a scene shot the night before the final attack on the Mission Fort. There is a Theological Philosophical discussion going on about the “Hereafter”. One of the Alamo defenders states that there is NO Proof of Heaven…..it is nothing but “Bosh and Bunkum".

Well the old Farmer Minister, now Texas Patriot and Soldier whose family has left him to give his all for his beliefs as they were sent to safety in East Texas says to the gathering of defenders who know that they probably will not survive the morrow, something along the lines of “I cannot shout down you non-believers, nor would I try. There is NO proof for those of you who do not look or want to look with your eyes closed……for those with their eyes open the Proof is all around you”!

I seldom write for the Als, Deweys, Willies, or Davids, but for the Newbies, or beginners.

Thanks to all of you who never Post on here but either call, PM or email to say how much you learn from all the Posts here on the Bobcat Section of BGH!

[Trueblue]

Now the Hounds, and there are some in every Breed and Strain, who have that little Extra dose of "Brains" truly are SPECIAL!

No doubt there are those hounds that come along every once in a great while who have something extra.Define it as brains or whatever you want,I tend to think that they are a freak accident more than anything else.I think what is required to be consistent over the long haul is not for the hound but the houndsman to "have a little extra dose of brains". Seems to me that too many out there are always looking for the superstars and then blaming the dog or the blood when it doesn't happen instead of shouldering the failure themselves.Proper training,exposure and environment are so critical to developing a hound into it's full potential.YOU are the single most important factor in the development of a hound.From the day a hound is born his environment in all of it's facets will shape that dog in either a positive or negative direction.Positive and negative stimuli induced on purpose or by accident can effect a dog for the rest of his life.What we are dealing with here is all the intricacies of a living brain and how to maximize it's full potential.More emphasis needs to be placed on the brain power within the houndsman to accomplish the task....imo.

[dwalton]

Their is a lot of difference in thinking coming from bear hunters, combination hunters and bobcat hunters. I think their are a lot of hunters that can get the best out of a dog by training no matter what you hunt. I look for brains, track smart, train ability what every you want to call it in a bobcat dog. Some of the best smartest bobcat dogs that I have hunted would not run a bear. Dogs like that consistently made some great bobcat dogs or a least the ones that did get culled because they had not grit. To me a dog that chooses not to run bear on their own is a smart dog. I would call that brains. What would you call it? Dewey

[Trueblue]

To me a dog that chooses not to run bear on their own is a smart dog. I would call that brains. What would you call it? Dewey

Many highly intelligent Border Collies will do a damn fine job working a bear on the ground.Just because a dog accels at that job does not indicate a lack of brain power.Your theory sounds good but I don't think it holds any water.