Who Pays Attention

[Budd Denny]

To how the pack runs together? Who is over running the checks, who picks them up, who is over competitive causing checks and how much of this do you honestly put up with before you eliminate that hound from your pack, or is it not that big of deal as long as the pack is catching the cats?

[dwalton]

To me it is a huge deal. A dog can have faults if he is not taking away from catching bobcats. If a dog is running to wide, hitting a road and going down it opening off track he is out of there. The key to a pack is that they work together. One dog can cause a lose or check as you easterner call it. One lose and the odds of treeing that bob gets cut in half, the next lose you are down to one quarter. I feel the long races some many people out here have is because of the loses. Fast steady pressure a bob will be treed or caught on the ground in 30 minutes not over an hour on a jump. The lead dog on a bobcat race can be the dog that is causing all the problems if he can not hold that track. Dewey

[South Texan]

Budd Denny wrote: Who pays attention to how the pack runs together? Who is over running the checks, who picks them up, who is over competitive causing checks and how much of this do you honestly put up with before you eliminate that hound from your pack, or is it not that big of deal as long as the pack is catching the cats?

That is our responsibilty as dog trainers to monitor each & ever dog in the pack as it is trailing or running. If these faults are not recognized & dealt with, that pack will not be catching cats for very long.
Robbie

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[Budd Denny]

That is our responsibilty as dog trainers to monitor each & ever dog in the pack as it is trailing or running. If these faults are not recognized & dealt with, that pack will not be catching cats for very long.
Robbie
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So you must stay with your hounds most of the time while they are running to see all this? In the terrain I ran cats in there were not many times were I could actually get in tight with the hounds while they were working to actually see how they were running. Sure I had a idea on who was doing what but most the time I was on a sled trying to find a way into the hounds, or walking behind them trying to catch up, or standing on the circle and only seeing a small fraction of what was going on when they would bring the cat by me.

[Dads dogboy]

Ah Mr. Bud, surely you are pulling our leg a little or maybe just searching for answers different from your area.

Your reputation as a Houndsman is such that I would be very surprised that you were only using your eyes to determine who was doing what in a Race.

Mr. Robbie and most of us in the South hunt mostly at night therefore "Seeing" with the eyes is at times difficult.....yet the Good Houndsmen are seeing the whole Race.....and they were doing this long before Mr. Garmin came along!

These Houndsmen can pretty much tell you what each Hound is doing at anytime in a Race, they are doing this based on what their EARS are "Seeing".

I know that you all in the North Woods hunt smaller numbers of Hounds when hunting Bobcats than we do here in the South, so I would think it far easier to KNOW what is going on with the Hounds within a Race! I bet you do!

Also I sure agree with Mr. Robbie when it comes to a Houndsman CORRECTING a Hound for any fault. Overrunning a Track can and should be corrected early in a Hounds career. A Houndsman just has to recognize this fault and apply the proper correction before it becomes a HABIT with the Hound!

Eliminating a Hound is always the easiest fix to a problem, but doing this may also eliminate that Special Hound before he has a chance to develop. Most Hunters have put a lot of time and thought into a Hound prospect before attempting to add it to the Pack, what with making Breeding or acquisition decisions. Fixing these faults in a Hound is part of the learning curve that a Hound must pass through in its 1st 2 to 3 years before it becomes a Cat Hound around it's 4th birthday.

[al baldwin]

This is difficult for me, when I give an honest opinion, I seem to offend someone. However I will tell you I find it very difficult to believe anyone can hunt a large number of hounds and correct every time a hound barks off track & etc. How can one be so sure when a young hound barks in a large pack 1/4 mile away in a dense brush patch that young hound is barking on or off track. I suspect, if those hounds are bred to be free with their mouth on track, the pack excitement is going to have them opening sometimes out of place, when the best trainers in the world is not going to be there to correct them. I think all hounds have a certain amount of brains but, believe 95% of what some see as brains is instinct, bred in traits and nose. I do know that when the type of hounds I enjoy hunting, have a tight jump there is a bunch more barking from the older hounds than I heard in the videos from C John. Infact it is a steady roar with the hounds I enjoy. If that causes me to lose a cat at times, so be it, it is what I enjoy. Hunt what you enjoy. And yes we all seem to read what is happening a little different. Al

[mark]

Amen Al!

I think you and i hunt for the same reasons.

[South Texan]

No Mr. Denny, very small percentage of the time are my dogs within sight of me as they are trailing or running but blessed enough to have lots of roads on the places I hunt so 98% of the time I am within hearing of the dogs. As CJ said my ears are doing my seeing for me. Don't believe there is a man alive that could stay within sight of a running pack of dogs in most of this country here. Must be nice if that is the way ya'll do it there where you hunt. Wow...a feller should never make a mistake on correcting a dog there, if you have'em within sight most of the time. If you hunt in the sumner time down here you have to hunt early morning hours while still dark, till an hour or two after daylight till it gets to hot. So again during the early morning hours before daylight your ears have to do your seeing for you. Also want to say that I am never 100% right on all my corrections on dogs. But my mistakes are usually forgiven and the dog will go on. Hope this shed a little light.

Mr Al, right now I'm hunting eleven dogs. But I never said I correct EVERY time a dog barks off track or etc. If I suspect (listening) a young or old dog making a mistake while trailing or running, I start paying close attention to that certain dog within the pack. If my suspicion continues & this dog is barking or whatever (the mistake) and not honored by the older dogs by the third or fourth time he will get corrected. But... I sure don't correct on every off bark. I'll give them the benefit of doubt first few times, then they better look out! NOT saying I never make a mistake because I sure do! But...maybe we are like our young dogs, if we don't make a mistake ever now & then we might not be trying hard enough. Hope this explained it a little better. Hope you have a good day. Robbie

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[slowandeasy]

Sure am glad Mr. Bud started this topic. As I can tell due to past experience. The new world of seeing the front end of the race has opened up through his eyes.

But as Robbie has said, And most do not believe. All top notch houndsmen will agree. YOUR EARS ARE YOUR EYES.

But this does not mean that a person should not strive to see the front end. As it will tell the real deal, and make your EARS BETTER EYES.

Now, I understand that everyone has their extreme hunting conditions. Robbie has touched on a few. But there is no excuse for not trying to better both ones self and your hounds. And if you ask Robbie or anyone else. They are overjoyed to actually see the actual animal their hounds are chasing, as it puts a lot of things in prospective.

However if you want to make all kinds of excuses as to why it won't work in your ruff country. No worry it's all good. But I will let ya in on a little secret. If ya continue to follow behind the dogs. You will never have to worry about getting it done, even if it is taking place on a golf course.

You are going to have to get accustom to taking angles (hard angles). And you are going to get beat on a lot of occasions. But nothing worth while ever did come easy. We did it before electronics. So please don't fill me full of BS about how hard it is.

And even when you just get to see the dogs and not the critter. You still get the opportunity to get a little better about putting the pieces of the puzzle together that you are hearing with your OTHER EYES. You may even see a check (loss) that you didn't even know was there. But plainly appeared before your real eyes, IF YOU RECOGNIZE IT.


I already know the excuses for not wanting to utilize this gift that is available to everyone.
1) Laziness ( CURABLE)
2) Out of shape ( CURABLE)
3) AGE (SORRY DAD SAID EVERYONE GETS THEIR TURN AND I AM FIGHTING MINE)


Take care, Willie

[mark]

Oh boy! I cant wait to get your ass out here and FOLLOW YOUR ASS to the front end of a cat race that doesnt involve a road. Can i pick all of the above on your list of excuses? Hell i feel lucky to be able to make it out of a tree anymore lol

Sorry man...... Couldnt resist

[Budd Denny]

Willie, I'm not at all saying I got to WATCH the big majority of the cats races I had, like others though most times I could stay with in ears shot and visualized what I was hearing. Since getting out of the big hounds and now running hare with beagles I have come to realize that all I was visualizing with my hearing was not exactly what was really going on. A hare in the area I run, runs a lot like my cat chases but on a smaller version. Like a cat when screwed down a hare will start running the trench in a ten acre area and dogs from the outside listening in that sound like check finding, fast line running hounds can actually be the one's actually causing all the loss's and are running around the check area's popping off. I scrutinise my front running hounds more then the last dog running in my pack, if he wants the front fine but he better be able to handle it and the pack. I will tolerate some swinging from the mid-pack hounds to a point depending on what else they contribute to the pack, until something better of course can fill their collars. Fighting for the front while popping off over the checks can ruin more races then anything. I think if I had scrutinised my cat hounds as much as I do my hare hounds I would have caught more cats.
Could of, should of would of I guess...LOL

[slowandeasy]

Hopefully I will be able to head back to Arizona with my head held high, and not have my tail tucked between my legs. And it would be nice if ya had to get on here and say, boy wonder what that ole fart was like when he was ayounker. But not making any promises. But I will say, this was the first time in 35 years I have been a foot and it sucked!!!!! And you didn't hear me say I wouldn't use any means I could to geterdone. And that you will get beat a good percentage of the time. But it's still worth it, Good out weighs the bad JMO,


Take care, Willie


P.S. There is no one on here that never has the opportunity to try and see the front end, no matter how rough their country is!! You may have to choose your battles as to when you try. But I'm sure the opportunity presents it self plenty of times, even possibly by vehicle in the course of a year of hunting. And at this time in my life there are plenty of times I just say no not today Willie.

[al baldwin]

Willie I am not offended, know you don/t have a clue what you are talking about if you have not hunted on the Oregon coast. Visited with a young hunter today who does bear damage control, told me he was beat, from following the hounds into a hell hole yesterday. And he is in darn good shape. Willie I was in a brush patch today with in 50 ft. of three hounds and never seen one of them. Infact they made several circles around me. Hope you do make it out to hunt with Mark. Believe you will leave with a appreciation for these terrain. I am told Kemp has a video where he talks about hunting on the Oregon Coast, understand he states he has hunted in most of the US and says the pacific northwest is the toughest terrain he has ever seen. Al

[slowandeasy]

Willie, I'm not at all saying I got to WATCH the big majority of the cats races I had, like others though most times I could stay with in ears shot and visualized what I was hearing. Since getting out of the big hounds and now running hare with beagles I have come to realize that all I was visualizing with my hearing was not exactly what was really going on. A hare in the area I run, runs a lot like my cat chases but on a smaller version. Like a cat when screwed down a hare will start running the trench in a ten acre area and dogs from the outside listening in that sound like check finding, fast line running hounds can actually be the one's actually causing all the loss's and are running around the check area's popping off. I scrutinise my front running hounds more then the last dog running in my pack, if he wants the front fine but he better be able to handle it and the pack. I will tolerate some swinging from the mid-pack hounds to a point depending on what else they contribute to the pack, until something better of course can fill their collars. Fighting for the front while popping off over the checks can ruin more races then anything. I think if I had scrutinised my cat hounds as much as I do my hare hounds I would have caught more cats.
Could of, should of would of I guess...LOL

Bud,

Could not have said it better. This is the reason I feel no matter what game a guy chooses to chase. The type of dog should remain the same. Everyone can have a good laugh about this statement but it is true. ONLY IF A PERSON EXPECTS TO OWN A CERTAIN CALIBER HOUND.


Take care, Willie

[merlo_105]

I try to do what I can to help the dogs out but if my dogs needed baby sat on every race there on then there not the hounds for me. I do very little after letting the dogs off the rig or out the box I hunt where there is a good road system so im always with in a few hundred yards and I can tell for the most part who is doing what. I run three Blueticks and I havent had to worry about them over running tracks seem's to me more of the running dogs are the one's causeing loses or checks