Who Pays Attention

[Budd Denny]

And had someone been standing 30 yards away but unable to see the hounds known what really happened there just by the sound of the dogs? I do realise that it is very difficult to get in on a bobcat race and watch the hounds work, I was only able to manage that a handfull of times, but am smart enough to know that what I was hearing in there was not exactly how I was visualising it.

[slowandeasy]

Bud,

Hind sight is 20/20. But if you were to start hunting cats again. Would you work harder at trying to see first hand EXACTLY what was going on. And do you think you would have a better product when you were done, No matter how few times you were able to make it happen. And would you say that even when you were unable to see the cat. Based on all of your knowledge, and your skills with your eyes, and your ears (your other set of eyes). Do you not think that you would be able to put the pieces of the puzzle. As to what happen in that same scenario that unfolded on that video.


Take care, Willie

[Budd Denny]

yes, yes, and yes to a degree.

[al baldwin]

Budd thanks for the post, very good information. Have you found it easier to find the type of trail hounds you like in the short legs than it was to locate those in your cat hounds? Budd I have been guilty over the years of keeping hounds that were sure guilty of over running and barking some out of place. What I think in my experience is the older hounds pay little attention to a young hound barking off & believe the elder hounds learn to read that. I have at times thought if a critter was listening to that hound barking off while a wise old veteran closed ground, maybe in bad way that off barking hound had helped catch. Sure not advising others to keep such hounds. Also I know have caught critters that would have eluded without those swingers. The problem with culling too quick is given time some of those knuckle head youngsters turn into pack leaders with age. One just can not run to Wal-Mart & pick up a new prospect. As for correcting hounds that over run & etc tough to be consistent here in this brush & my hounds are programed to quit and come out when corrected.Al

[newby]

Bud, thanks for posting that, I see what you're talking about now. Honestly though, that didn't seem like much of a lose to me. But I can see how that could cause bigger problems. Do you think having those two swinging hounds in their compliment that white dog? Keeping it moving forward or do you think the "checks" caused by them outweighs what they contribute. Is that what you guys with running dogs are looking for in hounds? Honest question cause I've never hunted with one.

[kordog]

i think if you want a hound to finish out with the pack and have it stick to the track at some point they should be run alone for awhile after they know what their after for game . thats why having the right amount of hounds to fit your training and hunting schedule is important to finish out a hound.if you have 50 hounds chances are your not gonna find the time to run them alone.less hounds equal more complete hounds in my opinion.any hound with some decent legs can chase another around making them look good.finding dogs that compliment each other catches game yes i get it . i just think we fail alot of hounds because they are always run in a pack.

[NorWester]

I think if a hound fails more often than not they are a lousy hound..period. If you run a pack and breed dogs for running in a pack why in god's name would you wanna "band aid" pressure related problems to running in a pack by soloing a hound? That makes no sense to me.

[Budd Denny]

Al, yes I find it harder to find a true snow hound beagle then it was to find a good bobcat hound. My problem is there is only 1 other beagler with in a hundred miles of me so I must do a lot of traveling to find dogs. There are few beaglers that are crazy enough to hunt in the conditions I do, (I want to dictate when I run, not when the weather allows me to). 4 months of the winter I have 3 feet or more of powder with temps hovering around 0 and most times well below. My coldest day out was -36 with nuts deep powder on the ground. So it's difficult finding guys breeding for that type of nose power, but there are SEVERAL guys in the big hound world breeding for cold nose. You ask 95% of the beaglers what they think of a beagle that can cold trail and they say they should all be culled.
As far as I'm concerned a bobcat has less scent then most of the popular game that is ran with big hounds, now I'm trying to run hare (much smaller) in harsh winter condition's. I'm loving the challenge!!!!

Newby, I don't think the two swingers complement the pack whats so ever!!! I have seen hundreds of times were a short loss like that gives the track enough time to go cold. I'm sure that several of you have seen bobcat tracks minutes old that the hounds just couldn't smell, I have seen this hundreds of times with hare, as short as seconds old. A hare is much smaller then a cat and sinks very little, even in powder snow. When you are running in negative degree weather with 0 humidity I don't care what the critter is they are leaving less scent, so every second counts!!!



Kordog, are you a old beagler? LOL....I have never heard big hound guys talk about soloing but it's almost a set rule with the beagle guys...except me and a few others that run nothing but packs.


Norwester, I agree 100%!!!!

[kordog]

because i think if a hound fails he is lousy also if he doesnt learn to pack after being soloed.lol.i have two beagles that when run together do just that ,but when separated my young male runs no wheres near the same speed .im making him solo to complete him.he is doing a good job and improving at first he kept looking for her. your telling me im screwing up by doing this.how many times have you seen dogs riding in the box while ol standby jumps the bear, cat , etc. young dogs need to be given opportunity to shine. ol standby has to be gone before some get a chance. to each their own

[dwalton]

Boy I have sure missed out getting my two cents in by being out of town for a few days. Great post guys I think what Budd, Willie and Robbie has said about how dogs should run a track is right on and seeing with your ears is something most good houndmen have the ability to do. The rest just make up a story which might or might not be true. I love Willie statement { I feel no matter what game a guy chooses to chase. The type of dog should remain the same.} There sure would be a hell of a lot better bred dogs out there if people would follow this statement. Dewey

[Budd Denny]

i have two beagles that when run together do just that ,but when separated my young male runs no wheres near the same speed .im making him solo to complete him.he is doing a good job and improving at first he kept looking for her. your telling me im screwing up by doing this.

So after your young male is completed and you start packing him back up will he keep his slower solo speed? If not and he starts racing again what good would have been accomplished? Wouldn't it be easier if your young male wasn't so competitive and ran a slower more controlled speed with out feeling pressured from the pack? How are we to create dogs that can take pack pressure and not have to be soloed if we keep breeding such hounds?
And nowhere did I say you are screwing your hound up by soloing, if you beleave in that training method and it's working for you then by all means keep doing what your doing.
I just have a difference of opinion when it comes to how I train my young hounds...Nothing more, nothing less.

[kordog]

the good that can be accomplished for me is i have a good dog if one dies . having him add more to the race when packed together having built some confidence from running solo .he still adds to a race picking up a check when they are run together . when packed i dont want one dog running 50 yards behind the other that would serve no purpose. if a dog is always in a pack how does that make it any better to breed lol that can be looked at both ways. like i said to each their own opinion .

[merlo_105]

I think I wouldnt mind a young dog with that super competitve drive who was over running tracks in a pack. If someone had such a dog I would scoop it up and invest time in running and running it solo. The dog will natuarally slow down and learn to handle the track and once put back in with a pack will have alot to offer. JMO... A dog is compeating for a track and it just cant handle it and the problem probably occurred by tossing it in with a pack as a young fellow. As a young fellow he wasnt taught properly simple fact. A dog is a athlete and that young athlete wants to win the game but never has been coached just tossed in to pitch.. Also JMO. I have zero problems with my young dogs barking off track or trying to leap frog out in front when they cant handle it I thinks its due to proper training. When singled out there is no one to compete with and no reason a dog will bark off track either. I want all my dogs to have that much drive, dogs are like people in that aspect people with drive go further in life rule of thumb... Each there own, right now Im working with a friends dog that caused alot of problems in a pack and by hunting that dog solo I have seen alot less slip ups. Still not ready to be tossed back into the pack but you wouldnt know she was ever causing loses or checks. She is 2 1/2 and has only been hunted in a pack since she was young. I took the task of working with her cause she has so much game catching drive and the guy was wanting to give up on her... He is already happy in seeing what she is doing on her own and is ready to have her back,

[al baldwin]

I think I wouldnt mind a young dog with that super competitve drive who was over running tracks in a pack. If someone had such a dog I would scoop it up and invest time in running and running it solo. The dog will natuarally slow down and learn to handle the track and once put back in with a pack will have alot to offer. JMO... A dog is compeating for a track and it just cant handle it and the problem probably occurred by tossing it in with a pack as a young fellow. As a young fellow he wasnt taught properly simple fact. A dog is a athlete and that young athlete wants to win the game but never has been coached just tossed in to pitch.. Also JMO. I have zero problems with my young dogs barking off track or trying to leap frog out in front when they cant handle it I thinks its due to proper training. When singled out there is no one to compete with and no reason a dog will bark off track either. I want all my dogs to have that much drive, dogs are like people in that aspect people with drive go further in life rule of thumb... Each there own, right now Im working with a friends dog that caused alot of problems in a pack and by hunting that dog solo I have seen alot less slip ups. Still not ready to be tossed back into the pack but you wouldnt know she was ever causing loses or checks. She is 2 1/2 and has only been hunted in a pack since she was young. I took the task of working with her cause she has so much game catching drive and the guy was wanting to give up on her... He is already happy in seeing what she is doing on her own and is ready to have her back,

Merlo, forgive me for ever doubting if you were for real. A lot of wisdom in your post. I have known for a long time dogs have less problems with over running & etc when started alone. One of the problems, finding dogs who have been bred in this area for cat hunting, they may make a more balanced hound when finished than some of the registered stock you are training, but it can be much more challenging to catch game with them at a young age when hunted alone, compared to the tree bred hounds. A pack of hounds can be very impressive lose a key hound or two & realize a bunch of the pack was playing follow the leader, and your catch success is way down. If those hounds have never been tested alone, one can never be sure. Just my experience. Al

[merlo_105]

I believe what helps me is im not worried about catching a cat, That being said I have the time and patience to take on a young problem dog to make it better I dont get but hurt when I go a week or two without seeing a cat in a tree thats what I expect and dont expect anything more, when the dog starts catching a decent percentage of its cats Im gonna toss it in with my dogs and go from there.... I agree with you Al, you cant be sure thats why taking the time and running them solo lets you know who plays what role in a pack.....