Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

A Place to talk about hunting Bobcats, Lynx.
CRA
Bawl Mouth
Bawl Mouth
Posts: 262
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:40 am
Location: Arkansas

Re: Correcting Running Hounds

Post by CRA »

Mr. Robbie great post very detailed with a lot of thought from experience!

I learned from my early childhood to never talk during a race. It was a good way to get in trouble from my Dad or Grandpa. I would sit there in the pitch dark listening to the dogs run a track. That’s how I learned how to hound hunt was by “Seeing with my ears”. I didn’t know there was a different way. I never hunted during the daylight hours and never seen snow until I was almost 30 years old. Most the places I grew up hunting was private property and you had better have your dogs and be gone by daylight because that’s when the landowners would be out working their cattle.

Living in North Korea, :shock: I mean California (not much difference both under a dictatorship) most my life, I was restricted by law from the use of GPS before they were ever even invented as far as I know. California ban GPS in I believe 1995. Until this last weekend I had never even seen a GPS tracking unit. Now that I got to play with one for awhile I’m a firm believer that they will even add more evidence and proof to help me correct what my Ears are Seeing. I know I have allowed my ears to make mistakes and correct a dog that was probably right. The dog will either have to get over it or get gone. What other choice do you really have if your suspicions are up on a dog doing something wrong but can’t see them? I’m guilty of ruining one, setting a few back, but I have turned a lot into cat harassers and even a few that could hold the title of cat dog. The same goes with breaking a dog on trash. You have to trust your gut and the hound knowledge you have learned and the knowledge you have of the species you chose to pursue. Yes, I have shocked dogs on good game. Mistakes are made as a dog trainer. Learn from them and move on. It will only make you that much more knowledgeable for the next dog you start to train. Hound hunting is based on educated guesses from knowledge you have gained by experiences.

To use Mr. Robbie’s analogy; I am always listening to Political Talk Radio and very seldom watch TV. Maybe from all the listening I have done over the years it’s helped me “See with my Ears”.

I believe now that I can use Garmin Tracking Collars on my dogs without “The Black Boot Gang” giving me a ticket and making a criminal out of a guy just trying not to lose his dogs, it will help me make wiser training decisions on my future dogs.

The advice I would give to someone starting out is start your correction out at the lowest level possible and don’t make a correction on a dog based out of anger. A well trained and well disciplined pack of dogs is just a reflection of their owner and handler. I have said this before in some of my other posts, show me a good hunter and I will show you a good pack of dogs!
tmalone
Bawl Mouth
Bawl Mouth
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:31 am
Location: New York

Re: Correcting Running Hounds

Post by tmalone »

C John, very good post i have my hounds trained with the e collar like you have stated, i had a young hound that would get hung up on a track i replied to a post on here and some guys said to cull him, i dug deeper into the archives and started to tone him when this happened he harked in right away, only took two times and he never did it again this hound is now leading my pack, if it wasnt for this site and all you houndsman not sure where he would be today, keep up the good threads and thanks for sharing your wisdom as it would take years to learn this!!!
TOM MALONE
User avatar
Dads dogboy
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1352
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:53 am
Location: Arkansas
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by Dads dogboy »

T-Malone, Glad you have been able to use some things gleamed from here....also thanks to those of you who have written privately how much you all are enjoying Mr. Robbie and CRA's posts.

There are a couple of more Good things that Norwester brought up that I will try to get to now.

He writes: "Another somewhat related question......when a cat starts running a very small area, do any of you fellows with hounds you describe as having serious nose power, have problems with the dog re-running a previously run track? If you do, and you have seen it.....how do you correct that?"

Boy this is one that a Bobcat Hunter in the SE faces regularly. When a Cat Race gets broke down, meaning the Cat has quit traveling do to Pressure and is ducking and dodging in a small area, the Hounds are continually having to make the distinction between a Covered Track and the Fresher route it just took.

Most of the Packs do not have much of a problem with this scenario....why? We had this conversation with CRA Saturday night and have discussed it at length with others. The consensus is that the Hounds are running the Scent Signature which is in the air at a certain height. The older tracks would have the remaining scent at a different level. This is just the theory that makes the most sense to these Hunters.

Running a Covered track at other times sometimes is an issue. Examples of these would be at a loose or when a Cat is either up a tree or down a hole. Sometimes a Hound just gets excited and Tongues on the 1st scent it smells. The Garmin sure helps with watching to see this happen. If other Hounds do not honor the tonguing Hound or the CHECK Hound does not, well then it is time for the "Stop and Think" button. If the Hound continues down the backtrack or covered track then HARSHER stimulation is called for.

Now there are NO 100% certainties in running a Bobcat, make sure you know your Hounds, watch the Garmin, Listen closely and you still might make a mistake. So always start a Correction with a Tone.

Here is an example of the above scenario where I almost messed up. We had ole Ruby and Queen along with five 7 month old Pups running an ole Tom Cat, a Cat we had run several times, he had become that great TRAINER that we all like to have. We had run this Cat over 50 minutes. He had gone 3/4 of a mile down an SMZ to a Cypress pond full of water, then ducked and dodged and squatted. This caused a bad loose.....about 10 min....then Ruby opened going right back down her backtrack according to the Garmin. I asked Dad should I tone her, he replied that even though she was getting old she had never backtracked a Cat in her life....to wait a minute. She took this Cat back 1/2 mile with Queen and the Pups with her but not barking, we guessed that they were confused-afraid-not able to tell the difference in the track. Soon the route Ruby was taking diverged from the earlier track and all the Hounds opened. We ran this Cat another 20 minutes then bayed him in some water and were able to leave him to run again.

Swinging Hounds were discussed on the other thread. These type Hounds are more exposed now with the use of the Garmin's. We want one or two GOOD swingers in our Pack, other Hunters do not like them....to each their own. Now if a Swinger is reaching out too far we will send that S&T Tone to it to make that Hound take a second to think about where he is in relationship to the Race or where a Loose has taken place. More times than not the Swinger will "unswing" and go back into the Pack.

If any of you all have any other Hound Issues you would like discussed by CRA, SOUTH TEXAN, or Myself please ask.....others probably have the same questions. Our Answers may not fit your circumstances but have worked for us!
C. John Clay
diamondctv@aol.com
870-223-2063
Budd Denny
Open Mouth
Open Mouth
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:20 pm
Facebook ID: 0
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by Budd Denny »

However I will stand by the Statement “There were/are fewer Good Bobcat Hounds than COLD Weather Beagles so replacing/culling these was not an immediate option.”

Why. Because I know quite a few Houndsmen who have Beagles being run after Hare in the Northern US from MN up into Maine.


Mr. Clay, I know I was never much of a cat hunter, but did enjoy the sport for awhile, I will stick to my opinion that it is harder for me to come up with a COLD Weather Beagle then it was for me to come up with Good Bobcat Hounds (here in Minnesota). Not saying I had a bunch of good bobcat hounds (very few) but I have come up with less (one) cold weather beagle that has been able to run in any condition's I have put her in.
Beaglers breeding for extreme cold weather beagles are a select few, could you please pass a few of these names on to me? I'm always in the market and to be honest I only know of VERY few beaglers in Minnesota of wich only one is breeding for cold nosed dogs. I do know a lot of beaglers from Maine and Michigan though, would be interested in your contacts from there as well. Thank you sir.
........Budd Denny..........
User avatar
slowandeasy
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1040
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:09 pm
Location: AZ.

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by slowandeasy »

Bud,

Check around for some of these guys, Dick Doyle Warrensburg N.Y., Charlie Ganinie, Adirondack N.Y. Huck Rowman around Adirondack, and Ray Slawviak had the DFJ dogs. And I can't remember the guy who owned the Dingus McCray dog. But I judged him and he was a nice hound. If ya ask around ya should be able to find some of those blood lines. ( some super snow dogs ). Bud i'm talking 15 to 30 below type hounds. Good luck!


Take care, Willie
Cry to the heavens and let slip the dogs of war. For they must feed on the bones of tyranny. In order for men to have freedom and liberty
al baldwin
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: OREGON

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by al baldwin »

[quote="Dads dogboy"]T-Malone, Glad you have been able to use some things gleamed from here....also thanks to those of you who have written privately how much you all are enjoying Mr. Robbie and CRA's posts.

There are a couple of more Good things that Norwester brought up that I will try to get to now.

He writes: "Another somewhat related question......when a cat starts running a very small area, do any of you fellows with hounds you describe as having serious nose power, have problems with the dog re-running a previously run track? If you do, and you have seen it.....how do you correct that?"

Boy this is one that a Bobcat Hunter in the SE faces regularly. When a Cat Race gets broke down, meaning the Cat has quit traveling do to Pressure and is ducking and dodging in a small area, the Hounds are continually having to make the distinction between a Covered Track and the Fresher route it just took.

Most of the Packs do not have much of a problem with this scenario....why? We had this conversation with CRA Saturday night and have discussed it at length with others. The consensus is that the Hounds are running the Scent Signature which is in the air at a certain height. The older tracks would have the remaining scent at a different level. This is just the theory that makes the most sense to these Hunters.

This question is for C. John, Robbie & CRA. Do you ever have bobcats that have just confused the hounds to a point where they are not able to catch the cat that day? Thanks Al
User avatar
South Texan
Bawl Mouth
Bawl Mouth
Posts: 264
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:02 am
Location: Texas
Location: Texas

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by South Texan »

Mr Al, I sure have. I have had the hounds run a cat round and round in a white brush thicket in an area not covering any more than a couple of acres for 15 or 20 minutes. Then make a lose and never get another bark. Due to so much scent from the cat in this area with the cat running over & over his own track then maybe squatting & holding tight or squatting then slipping out. Best excuse I can think of! But these potlickers of mine has sure had it put on them numerous times!
Robbie
User avatar
Dads dogboy
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1352
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:53 am
Location: Arkansas
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by Dads dogboy »

Yes Sir Mr. Al,

We have had a Cat run plumb down and have it squat in Palmettos or a thick Honey Suckle Briar patch and never get another Bark. These fall into the 7 to 10% jumped that escape under the "Shit Happens" category!

Several times I have been in there with the Hounds and have this happen....will be stomping around hollering trying to get the Cat to move and find the Cat Dead....it expired in midstride and the Hounds had never put a mouth on it and would not have anything to do with it...no bay or bark.
C. John Clay
diamondctv@aol.com
870-223-2063
CRA
Bawl Mouth
Bawl Mouth
Posts: 262
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:40 am
Location: Arkansas

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by CRA »

Mr. Al,

Yes, I have absolutely had cat’s put the screws to my dogs! I’ve had it happen during the bobcat rut and times when the scenting conditions change for the worse.

I’ve put out on cats during the rut where the tracks were so balled up that the dogs couldn’t ever do much with them and not get them lined out. From my observation’s it takes a very special track dog to get a track singled out and lined out when cats tracks are balled up heavy in an area that is just completely beat down with multiple cats crossing each other. When I use the term balled up, I mean where multiple cat tracks come together, travel together, and even are hunting together. This is normally during the rut and I have seen this on a few occasions when a Sow cat has half grown Juveniles still following her around.

Cats learn very quickly things that work to escape canines. This is especially true in heavy hunted areas and areas with heavy Coyote populations.

If you have ever hunted the high desert country on the east side of Oregon or Northern California you will quickly learn that cats seem to love hoping from bare rock to bare on the south slopes, because as soon as the sun shines those rocks the south side will be the first to melt off. This happens very quickly if the tempters don’t stay way down. If a cat makes a couple of passes up and down a rough long running rim under fast melting conditions sticking to the exposed bare rocks, it is normally a cat you won’t likely catch or ever get it jumped.
al baldwin
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: OREGON

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by al baldwin »

Thanks to Robbie, CJohn & CRA for the replies. I have never owned a pack of hounds that did not experience those same failures. Just good to know others have experienced the same. Thanks Al
User avatar
South Texan
Bawl Mouth
Bawl Mouth
Posts: 264
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:02 am
Location: Texas
Location: Texas

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by South Texan »

Mr Al
If a true cat hunter (that had hunted for a length of time) told me he hadn't ever experienced those failures, I think I would be real skepitcal to the truth of that man's word!
Robbie
U.R.E.
Bawl Mouth
Bawl Mouth
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: OR
Location: Roseburg, Oregon

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by U.R.E. »

This is in my opinion the single best post ever made on BGH.

If you are new to training you will do yourself a huge favor by not only reading this whole thread but understanding it. Ask questions of the authors if you don't. How and when you correct can make or brake a dog. I don't care if you run tree dog or running dogs this is a good read.

You will never finish a dog that has not been started. Not that I know much about it...

Don
Ultimate Redneck Experience.

HUNT WHAT YOU LIKE, LIKE WHAT YOU HUNT
dwalton
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 1372
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:49 pm
Location: oregon2h29dni

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by dwalton »

It is a very good post most of what is said is right on. For me running a covered track is a death wish for a hound if it can not be stopped right away. One has to be careful as to what we call a covered track I think. Top bobcat dogs are track smart and will not run a cover track. Out here if the dogs over run a cat that has squatted that cat will go down its back track sometimes for a long ways before it leaves it. The toughest lose to pick up. Track smart dogs will handle this lose. Also I have seen cats run the same circle several times before they move off it. In both cases you have to give the dogs a chance to show you what is really going on. In my early years of bobcat hunting one of the top bear dogs that I had would run a covered track on bobcats and the same circle all night. She never got bobcat hunted much. Good packs of track smart bobcat dogs have very little trouble with covered tracks especially ones with running dog blood. It is something I feel has been bred out of them years ago. The same token dogs with to much track pounding instinct are bad at it. JUST MY EXPERIENCE IT DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE DOGS YOU HUNT. As far as dogs good dogs just losing a track when a bob is jumped and dodging it happens to the best of us. I have shot cats out of trees on bare ground and have had the dogs run all over the cat and not find it with one one time even stepped on it. Something happens at times when a hound can not or appears it can not smell or trail a bobcat that was right there. I feel a good cat dog will cross another bobcat that might be hotter but will stay on the track they are trailing. I feel dogs can tell the difference in individual bobcats. It is hard to not make up a story as to what is or has happen on a cat race that we can not see but by years of experience and hundreds of cat races you can have a pretty good idea. Dewey
david
Babble Mouth
Babble Mouth
Posts: 2389
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Correcting Running Hounds at a Distance

Post by david »

Great thread. I know that posts so complete take a lot of time to think through and write in such a clear fashion. Thank you all for taking the time and being so generous with knowledge.

Wow. Times have sure changed. I don't think young hunters could possibly know what was paid for this knowledge; no way to know how hard it was to gain access to such knowlege years ago. I have known more than one old hunter who felt this stuff should not be spoken to others. It is a gold mine offered for free.

Good questions asked also!

Thanks to all involved.
Post Reply

Return to “Bobcat/Lynx Hunting”