The ultimate bobcat dog...

[Dads dogboy]

UnrealTK writes:

"One the F2 cross. Would be keeping a male and female from each litter or just the best male or female even the same litter?"

I wrote:

"Now I would breed the Leopard female to her son and the Plott male to his daughter (F2) and again hunt these Pups till I got the best female and male Pup from each litter."

Thomas you want to keep the BEST Male and Female from each litter....these 4 - 3/4 of one breed and 1/4 of the other should form the basis of the new Strain. You cross these with each other or back on the original Parents to adjust to the Style that most suits you.

Mr. Dewey is right! This is a program that while very satisfying, takes time (a decade) and much work to accomplish! You will be continually refining the Strain by Mating full Sibs or back to a Parent to get as close to perfection as you can.....it never ends....that trying to make the Perfect Hound.

[Unreal_tk]

Thanks alot,

Ill have to call you for more insight, it definitely makes it easier to understand. To date I have yet to make a litter of any cross. I just like to be prepare lots of information before I ever do anything. Dewey is probably right, you never know until you do it.

[Dan McDonough]

Well, now we're getting some input. Bob must be doing a nice job down there. I'll have to check in with him. I think he got Hank around 2005 or so. That was a talented cross but all of the dogs were slightly weird...some more than others. From reports, Hank was one of the more even minded ones. I think that was the Doc X Rachel litter. If I had a crystal ball I would have rather he got one of the dogs out of Gnaus' Hoosier Blue Jug and Jug's Sparklin Rachel. Those dogs had the talent without the limitations that come with the anxiety issues that Hank's litter had.

I'd like to check into the Laney Plotts. That's a long ways for a guy who doesn't like traveling East but maybe someday things will work out.

Thanks for the observation on the Likas, I suspected as much. I still wonder if they had been hunted with a different style (alongside hounds) if they wouldn't try to fit in and show some other talents. I don't have time for everything but I'm keping my ears open for evidence on that theory.

Cary, I don't think you'd find yourself wanting in the music department with leopards. There is usually a pile of music and if there were a pack of them down were you hunt I imagine that the races would be much longer on average. I'm going by David's account of the thick brush country he got a chance to experience last year. I can't say the same for all lines of leopards as some lines are heavy with chop mouthed dogs but the line I hunt are nearly 100% bawl mouthed dogs with a good chop on the tree. I would love to come down there and try the "one dog one cat" challenge. Not to prove you or anyone wrong but simply for the challenge. It sounds like a very hard thing to accomplish and I seem to like to beat myself and the dogs up on stuff like that. I'm sure I'd have a better chance with a dog that was raised there but once in a while I find a dog that can do it anywhere...or so I think. The stories of your hunting territory make me wonder if there is a dog that could do it alone there. I'd serve my family's interest better if I would stop thinking about such crazy adventures but I think it's in my nature. When I was in my early teens it took me three years to beat my dad in a game of Ping-Pong but I did it and never got down about loosing. As near as I can figure, that's when I started liking a good hard challenge. My dad might say it started long before that .

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Both Oscar and Tredster are open dogs and really are something to listen to, so I to would think the music from a leopard hound should be enough for anyone.
As far as likas, I have a video made by a so called top hound hunter in Sweden. Neither the likas or the plotts would survive in my kennel.
I have yet to see a lynx cat walk the dogs without getting stretched, when a lynx lays down and 2 Likas and 2 Plott dogs surround it and bark you have to question the grit in the dogs. There is no excuse for not climbing, the likas appear to stay back and walk the cats and bears, although they did appear a little more gritty then the plotts on the bear hunts.

I have a little different train of thought about breeding, you breed you best to the best each and everytime for the best chance at success. but each litter like all of our own kids each one is born with different traits.

[Boar Runner]

Dan, I got a few youngsters here if you would like to try one out in your neck of the wood
I agree with you on the many genes in the pool, I too have been amazed at the ability to reproduce itself so consistently. Hank was a pre-potent male that reproduced his likeness well. Norm the blackmouth that went into this line was the same. you could of breed him to a goat and get something that would catch game. lol. Dottie the Walker has always thrown amazing pups. The dog that got it all started by accident was a pup that I got from Wes York, (Shaft) his Dam was Walker/Plott Sire was Leopard/Bordercollie. He breed Cookie who is out of Hank and Dottie so right away I lost a lot of the border collie and plot doubled up on the leopard and walker I think the key to the success is that all of the dogs that went into this mix were naturals, and early starters that continuously progressed as they matured, they never plateaued. no telling if I will be able to keep it going, but so far so good. this latest Breeding Is Hoss (Shaft/Cookie) back to Piper(Hank/Dottie)

[1bludawg]

Open trailer,cold nose,fast,locating tree dog.Smart and easy to handle.They are rare but come in All the hound breeds .My best have been grade dogs but i have a young registered bluetick that is getting it done now and doing it alone.

[Dan McDonough]

Has the B.M.C. affected the amount of voice they give on track?

Something else I've found in the last couple of years is that the brains of the boarder collie don't diminish all that much on the first cross and not much more on the second cross. It's suprising how much of those brains remain on successive crosses. I'm not the first to find this by a long shot but I thought I'd share that here because it seems to be outside of common knowledge.

Also, are you getting tough, hard sounding voices or are you getting some of the musical type voices that Hank's sire Doc would regularly throw? My guess would be more of the former because even among Doc's pup (he sired several litters), about 20% of his offspring got the sweet, musical type voices.

One more thing, how many merles are you still getting? This may sound like I'm concerned with color but the point of this question is really to see if the merles stood out or the solid colored dogs stood out as the more talented dogs. Also, did you have an initial bias towards the merles or non-merles?

[Unreal_tk]

Loving the details Dan. Definitely show you put alot of work into your program. Ill keep my mouth shut and hope to learn something.

[Dan McDonough]

All I'll likely end up doing is either coming up with a weird cross or sticking with the Loepards.

That being said, I have found some interesting tidbits while studying the lurcher breeders and their theories. A super great book that I've often recommended reading is Rouges and Running Dogs by, Brian Plummer. It had some inferences to the importance of the gender of the parents in a cross bred litter (i.e. male greyhound to a female boarder collie or vice versa), one way is better than the other. Going for the more racey built in the pups, you would choose a female greyhound to a male b.c. That was a new one on me but not a surprise. I have very litte experience with lurcher breeding but what I've seen so far holds true to that theory.

I don't know quite where this lurcher project will take me but here is what got me going on it.

If you've spent some time around whippets, stags and greyhounds (especially whippets) then you've seen that they are capable of athletic feets that other dogs are not and they make it look easy. Now consider that when these breeds are crosses with others they impart a good portion of their physical ability on their offspring. Add to that the ability to put brains into that cross is surprisingly easy despite the relative stupidity of the sighthounds. Add to that the ability of the boarder collie to put nearly all of it's brains into that cross. Now you have a crossbred dog that can do things that no other dog can do (in total). I doubt if I'll ever succeed in putting a musical bawl mouth on the lurchers without dumbing them down but whatever I do come up with I'll be willing to bet that it will be able to catch cats like no other dog out there. Will it want to hang in there on an old track? I don't know but for a first big step into making a better cat dog, I'm going to take care of the catching end of things first.

It might be as simple as a second cross running walker x boarder collie back to a running walker or any other good hound.

[al baldwin]

Nothing takes the place of a cold trailing big hound mouth with enough brains and speed to use that mouth as they advance the track, forcing a bob to tree or find a place of refuge. Then have the ability to locate and bark enough to bring one to the location. In my opinion those tight mouth hounds are just not fun to hunt with. But, to each his own as I no longer have to harvest to enjoy hunting. I watched as my mentors reached this and thought I would never be satisfied with that line of thinking. Best wishes to all Al

[merlo_105]

Im with AL, Nothing better then a good hound.

But to each there own.

Trying to follow you guys but where are you gonna get the nose from? Breeding a collie to a grey hound aint gonna produce much, or is there gonna be a dog bred to the collie greyhound cross. Might have missed something. Anyways kinda interesting.

[merlo_105]

And why not substitute the Grey hound or Collie for a English Pointer. There fast smart and have better then average brains and the drive to go till they drop. Just food for thought.

[Dan McDonough]

Not every one will like the first step of this project, some will go nuts for them. They are certainly not for the music lovers but it's only the first step.

There's the old saying that you know when you've got really good bobcat dogs because bobcat hunting seems about as easy as coon hunting. That doesn't come along very often for to many folks. I've only been there for a short while. Some have been there for a good long time. I think that is because the right type of dog is still hard to get. My intention is to come up with a mix that is pretty repeatable for nearly anyone with enough money to buy the ingredients. I have a feeling that it will be something that is useful for more than just bobcats though. I can't really say where the next phase will go as I've not decided on that. I do have some idea's but it depends on so much of what happens with the first batch of dogs.

Bob Fogel seems to have an interesting thing going and I might have a look at his dogs and see what he's got happening.

I've got to do this along side of my leopards which is always first here so things will go slower than if I was doing this project all by itself.

I'd like to hear from some others that are messing around on the side or have seen some odd things that other bobcat hunters have done.

[1bludawg]

Guys,why try to re-invent the wheel when there are already bloodlines and strains out there that can tree bobcats? Some produce individuals that can do it alone.

[merlo_105]

I agree 1Bluedawg. But I find it interesting but also thats as far as it goes for me. And again each to there own...