Bobcats and Walkers

[Justaguy]

You know guys things have been a little slow here lately and no one has yelled at anyone for a few days so I have a question that might liven up the old discussion maybe. I have been reading BGH for the last couple of years and I have come to the conclusion that no one or at least no one out there running any other breed out side of walkers or trig/Running walker/treeing walker crosses that are willing to stand up and say I have dogs that can drift, has the speed and smarts to tree a bobcat in the numbers that these fellows out in the North West say they do every year.

Now I do not doubt the walker and walker crossed shouters & drum beating society as I truly believe they do catch all the game they say. And I almost also believe that their dogs are so fast that their feet barely touch the ground and so smart that they get to the tree and wait for the cats to run up them so they can bark treed. What I am interested in hearing is there any hunters out there that run say B&T's, English or any line of dog that does not have walker crossed in it in some way that is willing to stand up and say hey, I got a line of dogs that I am dam proud of and they can run just as fast and are just as smart as the walkers.....

Or are we doomed to live in the world of walkers and then everyone else ?

Now this only applies to bobcat hunters as I know that there are a lot of plotts, B&T's and English that run bear and lion and are in those races every step of the way truck to tree. It just seems that the only dogs quick enough, smart enough and tough enough to catch a cat has walker someplace in their bloodline.

Is it worth a discussion ?

















t

[Dads dogboy]

Justaguy,

Your idea is "Well Worth" a discussion.

However remember the "Walker" you are referring to is the "Treeing Walker". There are fellows on the East Coast and the Southeast who have Pure "Running" Walkers with Strains who "Get R done" there with Style and consistent success.

Hope we can hear from Second Nature as he has a Strain of English Hounds Up East who do a nice job!

There are several Packs of Blue Hounds that will put Fur on the tailgate in the Northwest, lets hear from you guys.

[mondomuttruner]

I think there are a lot of single dogs out of a line of B&T, plotts,or what have you, but I think the key is to have a line that consistently produces cat dogs out of that line. That being said, I believe the majority of top cat hound breeders use the running dog breed which is why most talk is about the running dogs. I believe there are a lot of other breeds that can perform as well as the running dogs but not as many of them due to the consistency of the breed. JMHO....

[wiblueboy]

We don't have bobcats in the southern part of Wisconsin but if we did u can bet your butt the first thing I would do is go up to Dan McDonough and get a leopard hound from him. I've never personally met Dan but from what I see on here and the UKC board Dan has done his research on producing top notch bobcat dogs and that is exactly what he does. I hope one day I might get the honor of goin up by him and watching his famous leopards tree some cats

[1bludawg]

I would offer the Smokey River Diamond Jim blooded dogs as top cat dogs that can compete with anything .They've been bred to catch cats before they were registered as blueticks.There has been several in my area that could do it all.No walker blood in them .I have one now that does pretty good .He has caught several critters on the ground including yotes and flagtails,over my objections of course!I believe he can run and catch with any mans dog and i'm open to friendly competition .Also i'd like to say a hound only has to please one person and that's the man who owns him

[pegleg]

there appears to be more variables in bobcat numbers then breed of dog. for example those boys up north have cats with money maker pelts so more hunters are likely to get real serious about it. the other issue is hunting regulations and hours. Texas hunters run cats after dark and thats not a possibility here unless you plan on watching for game and fish the whole night. then theres other species in a given localities such as lion and bear fox coyote etc. that affects how much time people focus on bobcats. so if your looking for a multi species hound you might choose differently then if your strictly running bobcats. i know the question is based solely on bobcat packs. but those other issues do come into the answer regardless. then theres the number of bobcats in a given area that has a huge impact on the number of cat caught.perhaps numbers of bobcat and season length/hours have more impact on cat numbers then anything else. i admire hearing of others successes and hounds a great deal. but to be honest theres Very few lines of Walker or Running hound that I would consider hunting here. I'm not a expert on the foxhound lines by a long shot but have hunted some. with treeing walkers I firmly believe that the majority of treeing walker dogs are so far below the top few lines of the breed they should be considered a different breed for the most part :argument . that probably comes from their mass popularity and the breeding of so many less then desirable individuals. if nothing else will raise hackles that preceding opinion should have. now as to why the strains that work so well do is because they're suited to there prey and its method of running. I've noticed that if you have a dog that sticks a track like a train while going slow will catch some cats but most of those tracks will "burn" off before the hound pressures a bobcat into treeing or catches it on the ground. also and this may anger some bobcat hunters but if you have a pack of smart dogs that have fair noses and a great deal of speed and the right style/experience they can actually loose a cat track but keep bumping the cat by experience running close enough to it to pick the scent up and zero in on it over and over quickly this works best on those hunkering and squatting cats. then theres those rare hounds that have enough of all those traits to pretty much catch cats dependably one on one. they get them quicker in a decent pack but don't miss many alone. the mistake i used to make was moving on to fast. here hitting a track isn't easy so its not a small matter to let one go and pick up another. so once one is jumped and begins the tricks its best to let the dog work that area until it unravels them or truly looses it. a cat can crouch for a long period before sneaking off but most don't really run in that large of a area once in their comfort range they can pull some strange routes out of the brush to run but circling is more common here then one really covering ground and leaving . and I've seen hounds not of walker extraction work very well at catching these cats. i will admit that for any breed or strain breeding the same type over and over can be part of the larger problem.

[Dan McDonough]

Wiblueboy,

Wow, that's a lot to live up to. Thanks for your confidence. We'll see if you feel the same after a few hunts...I hope so.

[david]

....No walker blood in them.... i'd like to say a hound only has to please one person and that's the man who owns him

Even in my short life time, I have seen all 5 coonhound breeds, with the possible exception of the Plotts, move more and more toward Walker characteristics and style. I cant know how that happened in every case. But I know how it happened in some cases, and can pretty well guess how it happened in others. How does that happen in your opinion?

Correct me if I am wrong, but was not the treeing Walker developed from the running Walker? So can we say the treeing Walker is without running Walker blood?

Dewey Walton has a dog named Red. That is perhaps the most gorgious redbone I have ever seen. I beleive he could take it to the world show and the dog would surely at least win best male of the Redbone breed. And if he won best of show, there would be plenty nodding their heads in agreement. Only problem is the dog is mostly Walker of one kind or another.

I have seen beautiful Blueticks that were heavy in Walker blood. The English breed largely became a place to register any Walker with too many ticks. Remember World Champion Hard Time Speck? As I understand it, the dog was 100% Walker single registered English. He had a heavy and long lasting effect on the English breed when every super competitive minded English owner in the country bred to him. I had a beautiful Black and Tan colored dog (leopard cur) throw me a Walker colored pup. She herself looked just like a nice houndy UKC Black and Tan.

Just for the sake of brand new houndmen: Single registration was the allowing of registering any dog that met the breed standards including color and ability to tree coon. Several of the breeds have been open to single registration in my life time, and maybe all of them. Besides that, there are many ways to introduce dog blood that will not show up on a particular set of papers said to represent that dog's heritage. And there are colors that can easily take over or camoflage Walker colors. That is the only way I myself can explain why all the breeds moved so strongly toward the Walker traits when Walkers could not be beat by any other breed in competition.



There has got to be some dogs without Walker blood some where. But in my very limited experience, if they are convincingly competing with Walkers, its because that is what they are.

[david]

I might add that Treeing Walkers are not my favorite dogs taken as a whole breed. They are too much hard work for me any more, with too many cat hunting problems built in. If I were to hunt now, it would be the dogs that gave me the highest percentage of caught game AND AND AND pleasure in the field and at home with the fewest headaches. That would not be the Walkers that I have closely known with a couple individual exceptions.

But even as I think about the above, every hound I have ever hunted with that could consistently catch a bobcat on the ground had at least a little bit of Walker blood in it.

If you are really looking for dogs that have no Walker blood and can compete with Walkers it might be too late unless you are willing to search other planets, or at least other continents. I am sure it could be done if you have enough time and money. But why? most people who start out with a goal like that just end up with Walker blood. It is a lot quicker and cheeper and you too can have a dog at the front of the pack within a year. I'm sorry it is that way. I will be as happy as anybody if you can show that it is not that way. I am all ears.

[1bludawg]

David,I think i know what you're saying but blueticks and walkers were both bred from the English coonhound.Walkes have running dog,bird dog and blueticks bred into them,generations back.The same can be said of the other breeds having different stock bred into them but after several generations they are as pure as you can get. There have always been individuals in each breed that could run with the walkers.These were selected for breeding stock to put more speed and hustle in the respective breeds as a whole.Hope i answered your question.

[1bludawg]

Thinking back on some of the good walkers i've seen,most of them had bluetick,b&t or redbone bred into them.My invitation stands ,bring your fastest dog and we'll see what happens.If by some miracle my dog wins you can call him a walker if you want to. Robin

[david]

Thinking back on some of the good walkers i've seen,most of them had bluetick,b&t or redbone bred into them.

Robin, why would you call those dogs Walkers then? Here's my guess, because they were colored like Walkers, when litter mates were colored like bluetick black and tan or redbone. So you could say they were Walkers with those other breeds bred into them or you could say they were the other breeds with Walker bred into them. They still have Walker blood what ever their color.

Your knowledge of history goes much deeper than mine. I never studied the history. I am only saying what I have observed in my own life time and my own experience. It is an interesting phenomenon that the Walkers came from the English, yet I have watched the English become the Walker in order to compete with them. I remember thinking the English breed would eventually beat out the Walkers in competition because in the 70's they were single registering basically any breed that was a great dog, with out a lot of regard for the color. It never happened though. I was wrong. English are still trying to beat the Walker as a whole. Again, this is just my life time and what I have seen with my own eyes.

thank you for sharing your knowledge of history and your own experiences as well. I was hoping some one could give us some hope of relief from the Walker Domination of the World. If the Anti Christ has dogs I'm sure they will have some Walker blood.

[david]

My invitation stands ,bring your fastest dog and we'll see what happens.If by some miracle my dog wins you can call him a walker if you want to. Robin

Robin, I have not owned a dog for a lot of years now. You know I could not have written a book about hunting if I had been hunting. That is my only qualification for writing a book on bobcat hunting: I dont hunt bobcats. But if I could bring the fastest dog I ever raised, it would look absolutely nothing like a Walker. But, [wait that is a BIG BUT...] but, the dog carried Walker blood. And yes, which ever dog won would be renamed "Walker"

[pegleg]

I don't even know where to start in all this its evolved to a full blown genetics issue. Our hounds are what they are because we call them by color coded breed names not something I agree with. But perhaps a lot of these " walkers" aren't and never where. Example breed a English red tick to a black and tan and you'll get black pups "blueticks" and saddle backed "walkers" along with variations and spotted dogs. If you go back far enough your dogs all came from over seas so whatbeed is that? And some of the most productive bobcat packs sure don't have any treeing walker or even look like them. Much less hunt like them. I believe it goes back to humans being humans. If it helps make money / prestige or and bonus or is just "easier" to call a dog walker it got called walker. This doesn't help anyone buyer or seller or even breeders because the "walkers" have more variables then any other breed and finding a dog that suits you can be done if you sort through enough . but it sure makes finding consistent dogs difficult. It seems popularity tends to harm hound breeds. And so far as the breeds becoming more similar to walkers that I firmly believe has to do with the coon hunts and manner in which they're judged/conducted. Very little tod ith bobcat hunting. I'm sure a majority of hunters that have purchased a pup from super coon dawgs to use in other hunting has found it lacking. We cant expect hounds to excel at many dissimilar task.

[1bludawg]

David ,the men hunting the dogs called them walkers .I've seen guys hunting blueticks and black&tans call them walkers,not exactly sure why .As for me,I've had better luck with Black&tans and Blueticks.Hunt what you like and like what you hunt! I have an eye out for the Anti-Christ his time is close at hand!