Performance in Different areas

[tman308]

It seems more people are getting intrigued by the sneaky little feline. I have a blast following these creatures through their habitat without even having a dog with me. It really teaches you how the cat moves when it is unmolested.

One thing I have noticed with my mixed pack of hounds (blueticks, Walkers, WalkerXBluetick) is some will hunt bobcat and will trail them without much help. Others won't even take the trail they appear as if they can't smell anything. (These are dogs that can normally run a dirt lion) Another observations is that the different climates and regions affect their catching ability. I have only lived in the Rocky Mountain states but when I was in Montana my lead dog (Nance Walker) could move a track much faster and I had a higher catch percentage. Now that I am on the border of AZ he sometimes can't get the track going nearly as well. The ground is covered in snow in both states, the temp is comparable, humidity is comparable, the only difference is the terrain and vegatation. In MT I hunted the drainages with big pines and scattered rocks. I noticed that when I walked out the tracks the cats were moving much slower and deliberate from tree to tree and stopping often to observe. In AZ the cats spends more time covering country and less time stopping. The terrain is open brushy hills and junipers with continous ledges and broken rock near the tops of the canyons. In MT he was open on track and in AZ he is silent until he gets the cat jumped.

It is very intriging to me to witness the difference in the regions and how it affects my dogs. I am by far no expert and am merely a weekend warrior in the hound world but I just though it was interesting to be able to see this sort of thing.

I know David talks about it in his book, which is an excellent read, how some dogs just can't do it in different regions.

Who else has moved around and if so have you seen a difference in your dogs perfomance?

Or do you travel to other states that hve different vegetation and terrain than you home state and see the same sorts of things?

Just curious what others have seen

[slowandeasy]

Travis,

How ya doin? This should be interesting. I'm gona keep a close eye on it.


Take care, Willie

[Pagosa]

Where were you at in Montana? Maybe there was denser prey up north due to the abundance of water, compared to the 4 corners? I don't really know just guessing.

[Dads dogboy]

Travis,

You bring forth a Topic well worth further discussion from Houndsmen from all Genres of Hound Hunting.

A new Bobcat Hunting friend from New York along with a long time BGH friend(Mr. TMalone) and I were discussing this very thing several weeks ago in New York. A Good Coon Hound from any region can be taken to a Hunt in another Region many miles and Eco Systems away from it's home Hunting Country and preform close to Top Form.

Yet take a Premier Bobcat Hound to a different region and they may struggle.

I look forward to seeing what others have to say as to the REASONS this takes place. In 2015 I plan on taking 6 Hounds up the East Coast to Maine, then across the Upper Mid-West to MT., then to OR. and home through AZ, NM, and South Texas documenting how these Hounds handle the different challenges found in each of the Eco Systems that are unique to each.

I look forward to the Posts that I hope will appear on this Thread, newbies please jump in with questions!

[Rod Vinson]

Well John I want you to stop here if you will... I got some place I can let you try this area!! You got my number!!

Rod Vinson

[tman308]

Willie, doing good thanks.
Pagosa, the abundance of water may have something to do with it however my bobcat population here in AZ is much higher than it was in MT, I use to spend alot of time around Monarch.
John, That will be an awesome experiment!!

[slowandeasy]

Travis,

I think we can agree no one will become rich treeing them here. But a lot of fun to be had.
C. J. I'm sure a stop here is in order on the way home. I'll go easy on ya hence the name Slowandeasy!!

Take care, Willie

[Dale T]

Do any of you guys think that Bobcats from different areas could smell different or put out more/less scent?

[Dads dogboy]

1st.....Mr. Mike Martell, put your post back up. It had merit as to what you have found where you have hunted. That is information that others may never get to have 1st hand. You had some observations that SHOULD provoke Thinking if not Conversation!

Now Dale T, you ask "Do any of you guys think that Bobcats from different areas could smell different or put out more/less scent?"

My guess, and that is what it is, a GUESS, is that as Mike Martell has already stated; due to changes in Diet that are found in different areas that a Bobcat lives, a Bobcat in North Florida whose diet is mostly Swamp Rabbits and Bull Frogs may smell slightly different than a Bobcat from the Oregon Coast who makes his living eating Mountain Boomers. There are probably similar analogies for a WI, AZ, ME or MT Bobcat. Each may Smell slightly different but still SMELL like a Bobcat.

As far as putting out more or less Scent, my thoughts are that this is more of case of the Current state of the Bobcat, than Geographically where the Cat is located...ie: is it Calm & Relaxed, or is it Agitated or Scared, is the Cat Feeding or Hunting.

However I am betting Ole Jubal is going to have more difficulties adjusting his NOSE to the changes in Humidity, Temperature, Soil, Vegetation(or lack thereof), and prevailing Barometric Pressure so he can SMELL anything, when taken to a much different Eco System than he is normally hunted in.

These are just my thoughts....lets hope others have some thoughts on this Subject.

[tman308]

Well I missed Mikes post was hoping to see it. I was also hoping for some good discussion on the topic. I know what I'm seeing in different areas and wanted to know if others gave similar or completely different experiences. At any rate just to add a little, I find scent a fascinating thing! I walk through an area when its 15 degrees and nothing more than a few tail wags. Continue following your dogs that have the trail and a little while later once its warmed up and now i get some barks. Then a hot trail, a jump, and finally a hole. Its really rewarding to stay with your dogs throughout a race.

[david]

I so much enjoy this topic because as topics in the hounding world go, it is largely un-explored. It is great that the topic is started by a man who has moved his same self (hunting style, handling style, relationship to the dogs etc) and the same dogs to a different location and gotten extremely different results. I like this because a lot of the suspected variables are removed. When dogs change hands to a new location, the new hands are always suspect. What a great original post to this thread.

I have had some negative feed-back on my book on this topic. It has come from at least one man recognized as a Master Bobcat Hunter. But it always comes from someone who has always lived in the same region. They want to help me understand something, but I am fairly un-bendable on this topic because I just can not un-see what I have seen, and I have seen too much.

I think CJ Clay's experiment is monumental and I cannot wait to see the results. It also removes many of the variables involved when most dogs change locations.

On the question of if cats smell different, I have seen things that make me think they might even smell like a different species in different areas. I have seen an older straight bobcat dog taken to a far off region introduced to a fresh bobcat track. She looked up like "what do you think I am? an idiot? I am not falling for an obvious trash-test set up like this!" She would not run it. And after months of coaxing, she would go, but never whole-heartedly. This was a top bobcat dog raised and trained by Earl Davis in Forks, WA. Her name was Goldie, and she was the central female of his breeding program at the time.

This is the question I want answered: is there a place or places where bobcat dogs can be raised and trained, become successful, and this success will translate to any location in America? My theory is that yes there is (yes there are). And my hope is that discussions like we are having and experiments like what CJ Clay is planning will help us figure out where these places may be. I have already seen that certain areas have a higher success rate in dog transfers to other areas, and certain other areas are almost predictably doomed to great disappointment. It would be way fun to come up with a map and chart showing which areas do well transferring to which other areas. And some where on that map/chart will be a location with arrows going like spokes on a wagon wheel all over North America.

And from that area will come The Complete North American Bobcat Dog. The demands of the area he was developed in will make him transferable anywhere. He will be perfect.

C'mon, I can dream a little cant I?

OK, OK, to make it a little easier to swollow, how 'bout we come up with the area with the highest percentage of successful transfers to other regions throughout North America. ??? I cant wait to see it. But let's go guys, I'm getting old.

[mike martell]

Sorry guys, I have been "trashing" over in the coyote section and missed this good thread....Earlier I had posted an opinion about bobcat smelling like bobcats from one region to the next and agree with C. John....Bobcats smell like bobcats and not only bobcats but I support my claim after turning down dogs used for bobcats on a Canadian lynx and have those dogs take a track out of the box like they were shot from a gun. Not just once but every different dog turned down acts the same....As for one area to the next, I notice some adjusting necessary on the high desert bare ground like in the sage brush picture on the bottom right....but if you stick to it you will find game is game....

Travis, you should recognize a few of the pictures I posted and will make you want to stop by Belt Creek Brew Pub for a pigs a@@ ale! I hate what happened in Oregon with the ban but admit it was for the best for me looking back....I was very determined to get away from Oregon hunting and dropping these dogs wherever the road took me and glad I did....Montana is little different from Oregon and as you know bobcat hunting is illegal for nonresident hunters...In one of the pictures is my nephew who's place serves as my base camp in Great Falls when I'm in Montana....Diet may change the smell a little but all these critters be it bear, lion, bobcat, lynx are the same all over....If a dog is wired to run them than it doesn't matter. For the record...I have never hunted in Arizona but if Willie can put up with me for a week or so, I suspect I will get my butt kicked there and will complete my bucket list of challenging new areas. I think it would be a safer bet to meet Willie in Culbertson Montana and run a Missouri river coon....My dogs will shine there!.....But clearly understand I will not bring a hound to Arkansas and make a fool of myself....If you know what I mean! Then I will have a story to relate to based on fact....I have hunted all western states Or. Wa, Id, Mt, Nv, Ca, Ut. Wy. and a little in N.C. TN...

Happy New Year to all!

Mike

[david]

I hate to bring this up, because I know it has proven a sore spot, but here goes. The example I gave of a dog turning down a bobcat from a different region was an absolute straight bobcat dog. She would turn down a domestic cat, she would turn down an Onza, she would turn down a lion. She would turn down anything that did not smell like a bobcat to her. The examples you are giving Mike are combination dogs who take anything you give them permission to take.

Your post would imply that lynx smell exactly like bobcat to a bobcat dog. I know you don't really think that. I am pretty sure that could be proven untrue. I am pretty sure a person could break a bobcat dog from taking a lynx track just as they can be broken from taking a lion track or domestic cat track.

This is a very difficult topic to take apart because of all the variables which are nearly impossible to remove.

[al baldwin]

David never hunted bobcat in other areas, but could it be Goldie turned down that bob track because it was not as good as you thought. Have seen tracks I thought had to be smoking hot , but the hounds could not smell. Others have stated seeing bobs and the hounds never knew they existed. No one will ever know for sure what happens in those incidents, because humans cannot smell tracks like the hounds. I have to think a bob smells like a bob from the east coast to the west coast. I have no doubt some cats have less smell than others, here. Al

[david]

Al, she would not run a hot track that other dogs were taking away. And it was that way for weeks. She was checking the track just like a good check dog should. I am not saying I have an explanation, but when I hear some one make sense of this, I will let you know. There are some things I have seen that I can not explain. Wish I could. It is frustrating trying to explain it to folks who have never seen it and can only relate it to what they have seen. I would be doing the same to anyone explaining a phenomenon I have never seen. (About like explaining the rigging phenomenon to people that have lived 70 years never having seen it, and not believing that it could possibly work in their area. They have not seen it, so it does not exist).