question about line breeding

[oldvesper77]

i was wondering what most people that breed a line or strain of dogs think is "to close". i have a female i was thinking of breeding to her son. both have little faults and hunt almost the same. what do you guys think?
thanks

[FullCryHounds]

I think your asking for all kinds of problems. Both physical and mental. There's a reason Mother Nature takes car of this problem. Why do you think your dogs are going to be different.

[cobalt]

That's a bunch of BS. That is a common breeding practice and is done with success to fix traits that are beneficial and weed out negative traits. It is the responsibility of the breeder to cull out what is deemed as a cull. I am not a fan of a lot of this breeding generation after generation, but in order to have a "line" of dogs, one must "line" breed.

[oldvesper77]

i know it makes no difference, but these are beagles, i hunted 3 out of the litter and kept this male. the dad died or i would have put him back to the mother. there is no line breeding in generations back as far as the father/mothers papers show. not sure if that could be a factor.
i would plan to keep a few. but i cant hang on to a entire litter, so the remain pups would need to go to other hunters or as family dogs.
when a cross like this is made, are there defects in pups normally? im looking for better dogs. not deformed/stupid dogs.
thanks

[slowandeasy]

That's a bunch of BS. That is a common breeding practice and is done with success to fix traits that are beneficial and weed out negative traits. It is the responsibility of the breeder to cull out what is deemed as a cull. I am not a fan of a lot of this breeding generation after generation, but in order to have a "line" of dogs, one must "line" breed.

Your answer lies in this quote. You have to ask yourself. Do I want to be a breeder and act accordingly? Or shop around and purchase pups from some one that is trying to do so. Nothing wrong with either way, just a personal choice.


Take care, Willie

[mike martell]

I just had a conversation with a Professional hunter who line breeds and inbreeds and his claim is it has served him very well to maintain the desired traits he deems necessary for well over three decades to facilitate his livelihood.....His breeding program is for himself and a few select friends with nothing going out to the public for sale.....His did remark, he has never seen any deformities in any cross he has made and have never culled a pup? This man makes his living hunting his dogs.....So my reply back? I listen to what the man has to say and keep my mouth shut.....

JMHO.....Mike

[driftwood blue]

Close breeding

the female to her son would be classified as inbred..
if they both have the same fault you can well expect the same in the pups.--if it is something you cannot live with I would look elsewhere..
if their faults are not in the same area it would be a little safer.inbreeding intensifies the genetics both good and bad.....line breeding is a bit safer and what has worked out well for me is to locate a nephew to that good female from the female line.also breeding a male to a niece works pretty good.
I have seen some mother to son crosses that were OK but those faults were surely set in them.
one case I know of breeding a male to the daughter sure brought out some of the bugaboos that were not desired..

[FullCryHounds]

Back in the late 70’s my FIL was VP of Research at Carnation. What he was in charge of researching, was the health of dogs. In fact, they were using Beagles in their research. I went down to their lab one time and learned so much it stuck with me all these years. They had several breeding programs going on at the time, one which was in-breeding and line breeding. They had studies going on about types of feed and feeding schedules. Also, how dogs were kenneled or housed. I wish I was smart enough back then to get some of their research materials but I didn’t. What I did do on many occasions is have discussions with my FIL about dogs, feeding, breeding and general care. Some of the information I do remember is what he told me about the general health of dogs, how they are best kept and how they are best fed. What I also remember him telling me that day is that the breeding program they had going on with the inbred and linebred dogs did not produce as healthy dogs as did their other program that kept the genes farther apart. He specifically mentioned the intelligence of the inbred dogs to the other dogs. So comments like that have a tendency to stick with you. I remember another comment he made to me that day that has stuck with me and is where my earlier comment stems from. And that comment was that they couldn’t produce a healthier (both mentally and physically) dog with their manipulated breeding program then mother nature did. So I’m not sure if my comment is BS or not, but what I do know is that my comments aren’t based on some guys backyard breeding ‘program’ , but a bit more of a scientific approach.
Over the years, I asked my FIL about housing and feeding dogs. A lot of how I take care of my dogs is based on what he told me. Dogs did much better being fed twice a day then once a day or every other day. Dogs did much better when kept in a group then dogs that were kenneled separately. His remarks were based on years of studies they did with these dogs.
So when I hear houndsmen say that they don’t feed their dogs before they go hunting or that they feed their dogs every other day and they seem to do fine because that’s how grandpa did it or that somehow keeping a dog separated in a kennel for weeks and months at a time by itself is somehow good for the dog, I have to wonder how much reading and research they’ve done or what they are basing their decisions on. Or is it just because that’s how some old timer told them that’s how they did it so it must be OK. Or is it because that’s what’s easier on themselves.
oldvesper77 , you asked on here about what others thought about inbreeding your dogs. You must have had some kind of doubt about it or you probably wouldn’t have asked.

[oldvesper77]

fullcryhounds, i wouldnt say i had doubts about it,since i have no experience with line/in breeding i thoguht i would ask,figured there are many guys that know far more then i do about breeding. as far as the dogs i was considering, in my eyes theres not really any big faults in there hunting ability. they both are very good hunters, and out of the 20-30 other dogs they have ran with, i dont see anything i would like to add to the kennel. thats my main reason for asking. i am not looking to breed for money and i will not do it if odds are the cross will make for unhealthy dogs.thanks

[twist]

That is an outstanding cross. Any one that has breed dogs for very long will tell you the same. Andy

[LBell]

Line breeding and inbreeding is all the same when you strip it down.YOU ARE BREEDING FAMILY TO FAMILY TO GET OFFSPRING. The only question is how close are you willing to go? mother/son, father /daughter over and over will give you problems but close breeding compounds both the good and bad if they are good then thats what you'll get. This was talked about alot on another site and I learned alot. If they are what you want breed them. Lance

[driftwood blue]

Hey Dean: would surely like to get my hands on information like that!

J.Richard McDuffie in his many writings in the older versions of Full Cry mentioned a thing he called "Breeding Stagnation" would take me a while to dig it out of my collection of old magazines but if memory serves me right, he mentioned the loss of vitality as well as problems with breeding,raising healthy litters and loss of the mothering abilities in the long run.. if memory serves me right I believe that the gradual decline of the fertility and mothering instinct was one of the first symptoms that the close breeding had went too far..

[cobalt]

The key phrase in that statement is "in the long run". That means sustained tight linebreeding. I am on board with that. With one tight cross the chances of this are minimal at best. This phenominon is called inbreeding depression.
If a person is basing their breeding arguements on 50 year old data with non-working test groups, they might as well be feeding their dogs an all raw meat diet like they were wolves.

[Unreal_tk]

Cobalt. I am just curious if I have this right. Your OK with a one time cross but not a regular practice. I know of a son mother cross that turned out fine. Dogs were just like the mother/grandmother in my opinion which is a really good dog.

[Old dog]

cant resist this one.lol inbreeding wont give you faults for the first or second breeding but it WILL show you the faults the dogs already had. if you cull the bad traits out before you inbreed you wont have the faults . you will however need a out cross for the vigor. I like a out cross from another tight strain or half blood from my strain. some of the best ive seen was from a brother sister cross done this way. jmo