question about line breeding

[JTG]

Here's a couple of free books from Amazon, if you have a Kindle, The variations of Animals and plants under domestication, Vol 1,2,3
With experience, in a life time you could not breed close enough, until genes are fixed and locked nothing happens, it’s just rolling the dice or random breeding, just guess work.
When you add outside blood their genetic makeup will never be the same. There is no such thing as breeding back. If you get hounds from one breeder and breed it to an unrelated hound from another breeder you are starting out with about a six way cross. If they make good hounds with that breeding that's great, but the next time you breed the same pair you are likely to get entirely different hounds and their offspring will be all over the place. Because their genes were never locked and you are getting traits from all their ancestors.
A female will pass mitochondrial genes to her son that will not pass on. The female will not pass any genes on her sex link side to her daughters. The mitochondrial gene is where most diseases and genetics disorders take place. The breeding of mother X son, will give the female side, sex link genes ,she could not get from her mother. This is one method to solve any breeding problems, that you are sure to run into
Breeding brother to sister has the same genetic load as breeding father to daughter or mother to son but understanding sex link traits will set a strain faster than any other method.


JTG

[JTG]

Great start.

i was wondering what most people that breed a line or strain of dogs think is "to close". i have a female i was thinking of breeding to her son. both have little faults and hunt almost the same. what do you guys think?
thanks

[1bludawg]

I've always found breeding dogs to be a fascinating subject . It hasn't been to many years ago that inbreeding was considered taboo.Now it's common practice.Consider some of the men who were doing it before it was acceptable like Steve Matthes,Dave Dean,Del Cameron and others.A man can learn a lot by listening to JTG on here.

[slowandeasy]

I've always found breeding dogs to be a fascinating subject . It hasn't been to many years ago that inbreeding was considered taboo.Now it's common practice.Consider some of the men who were doing it before it was acceptable like Steve Matthes,Dave Dean,Del Cameron and others.A man can learn a lot by listening to JTG on here.

Bludawg,

You can add Willett Randall from the famous patch hounds, and don't forget the Clays. I owe what little knowledge about line breeding and Inbreeding to Dad.

JTG,

I believe Dad got a lot of his from one of the same sources as you. A person In charge of genetics for GUIDING EYES FOR THE BLIND. He spent many lunch hours picking their brain. I would also like to tell you that you definitely have patience trying to explain it to beginners. But it should bring better pups in the future.


Take care, Willie

[JTG]

Hi Willie, yes sir, I learned from the same sources as your Dad. I admire how you are always a peace maker. It tells a lot about what kind of man you are.
Jtg

I've always found breeding dogs to be a fascinating subject . It hasn't been to many years ago that inbreeding was considered taboo.Now it's common practice.Consider some of the men who were doing it before it was acceptable like Steve Matthes,Dave Dean,Del Cameron and others.A man can learn a lot by listening to JTG on here.

Bludawg,

You can add Willett Randall from the famous patch hounds, and don't forget the Clays. I owe what little knowledge about line breeding and Inbreeding to Dad.

JTG,

I believe Dad got a lot of his from one of the same sources as you. A person In charge of genetics for GUIDING EYES FOR THE BLIND. He spent many lunch hours picking their brain. I would also like to tell you that you definitely have patience trying to explain it to beginners. But it should bring better pups in the future.


Take care, Willie

[tod watterson]

May not be the right place for this question but here goes . I have been running hounds for pushing 30 years and I've stayed basically with the same'' group'' .I hesitate to call them a line or strain as I only breed when I need young dogs so I'm talking maybe a litter of pups every 2 - 4 years tops . In the past 20+ years I've hunted males only so when I need pups I usually either buy the best female I can find and get a batch or if someone I hunt with has an outstanding female we'll breed my best male that I have at the time for some pups . It seems like I get pretty good body uniformity and hunting styles from these crosses with ,to me at least , at least some of the pups out doing their parents .Damn seldom does a pup not end up making a good dog . I almost always raise the male pups in a litter only .Maybe one female if there aren't many males .Right now I'm looking to breed my best male, and he's probably the best dog I've ever owned , so do I find a female that is related to him or find the best female I can find and keep doing what I've been doing in the past ? Just trying to figure out the best way to try to duplicate what I have now . His mother is spayed and gone ,he had 2 litter mate sisters that are now gone .I have a male out of one of his sisters and I may be able to find a litter mate to him but the nephew is not exactly built the way I like and he kinda pounds the ground and isn't as easy of a mover as I like . The dog I want to breed is only 4 years old so I got time but I don't want to make a bad cross and I'll want a couple pups to start next fall .

[BuckNAze]

Does anyone ever think of nature vs nurture when it comes to these hounds and breeding? What I mean is the dogs people are selectively picking for their breeding program are they the absolute naturals out of the bunch or are these people just really good dog trainers? Talked to cobalt about this and made a lot of sense to me. I like training dogs so this may interfere with breeding down the road as I can probly "make" a lot better dogs than a lot of people because of my year round seasons and have a bunch of game. How does this all come into play when people choose which hounds to breed? Do they pick the naturals that they didn't have to do anything with as young pups around 12 weeks old or younger or do they wait till they're 1-3yrs old and proved to their owner they're worth breeding? Or both? And as they were 1-3yrs old did the training make them as good as they are or were they naturally born that way?

[tod watterson]

I can usually pick the pups I want at 3 to 4 weeks of age . I'd hafta say I pick on natural ability as I expect a lot out of even young dogs . Traits I look for are first outa the box , not people shy , firsts eating , and if I'm raising them and own the female , by 6 weeks they better be using their nose at a least a little . Last 2 batches of pups I raised had pups that would bay a house cat or coon at 5 and 7 weeks . They were trailing drags at the same age and bay or tree a week after being exposed to a roll cage .By the time they are 4 months I'll be hunting them on horse back with my other dogs . They gotta be pretty agile and be able to keep up .By 6 or 7 months I expect them to be treeing on game and making some races . By a year they need to make most races , tree , and be pretty well on their way to being trash broke . Well , not broke , but should at least know what they should and shouldn't be running .I 'm too damn picky but if I'm gonna spend the time and money to raise and train a dog I'm gonna hafta like everything about him . Maybe everybody won't like him but I will .

[BuckNAze]

Im the same way tod. I start mine whenever they're ready to hunt a lot of times it's between 3-4 months old age but they've mostly just seen caged critters and are starting to trail bear. Some say you can burn a young dog out doing that but I don't want the dog anyways if it's gonna get burnt out from what it was bred for

[oldvesper77]

thanks for all the insight guys, the cross was made, hope all goes well and they turn out.

[bluedog56]

John would never say it so I will he better. I haul a pup out west for him and he gave me one best cat hound anywhere and free once in a lifetime hunds are his culls.
Pete

I've always found breeding dogs to be a fascinating subject . It hasn't been to many years ago that inbreeding was considered taboo.Now it's common practice.Consider some of the men who were doing it before it was acceptable like Steve Matthes,Dave Dean,Del Cameron and others.A man can learn a lot by listening to JTG on here.

[JTG]

Pete,
Del is way better than me, history will prove him to be the best breeder of big game bluetick hounds the other guys I heard are very good.
Thanks
JTG

[tree-em]

What you are wanting to do is in-breeding. For the most part, that is too close..Better results with a Grand-father to Grand-daughter. Uncles and aunt works good too...Half brother and sister is as close as I'll do.. PT

[festus]

Does anyone ever think of nature vs nurture when it comes to these hounds and breeding? What I mean is the dogs people are selectively picking for their breeding program are they the absolute naturals out of the bunch or are these people just really good dog trainers? Talked to cobalt about this and made a lot of sense to me. I like training dogs so this may interfere with breeding down the road as I can probly "make" a lot better dogs than a lot of people because of my year round seasons and have a bunch of game. How does this all come into play when people choose which hounds to breed? Do they pick the naturals that they didn't have to do anything with as young pups around 12 weeks old or younger or do they wait till they're 1-3yrs old and proved to their owner they're worth breeding? Or both? And as they were 1-3yrs old did the training make them as good as they are or were they naturally born that way?

In my oppinion you absolutly have to be picking the "natural " pup's to go on with, and to go a little further than that, they have to have the natural abilities you are looking to improve up on or set in your program. A dog that is taught these traits thru exposure, is not going to pass them on consistently to his pup's.
Same thing applies to the traits you are trying to get rid of, breeding wise, you have to go on with the pup's that " Naturaly" don't show the trait you are looking to get rid of while showing the traits you want to keep or improve on. You have to use the litter average to tell you what you have, and where you need to make improvments.

You are looking for two different dogs here in my oppinion. For just a good old HUNTING dog you are just looking for a good dog that gets the job done, that dog has to stand on his own merits and ablilty and show you what he can or can't do. Alot of dogs can be hunted HARD, and gradually over time and game exposure turn into a pretty decent dog, maybe even a great dog. However, these are learned traits that you have to train into the dog and are not natural traits he was born with. Most times these dogs will not pass on there hunting ability because it is a taught and learned behavior..

With a dog used for breeding you have to rely on his back ground and ancesters heavily (blood line) for traits that " Naturally " accure in the littermates . His ability or lack of ability to consistently throw a particular trait or type of dog will depend heavily on the breeding methods used ( line /in breeding to common ancesters, or outcross best to best with no common ancesters )and the "Natural" abilities that are common in his ancesters and there littermates in his back ground.
Litter Average ( common Natural traits )in a dog & his littermates, parent's & littermates, and grand parents and there littermates have a big influence most of the time on a dog's reproducing ability. A dog generally will reproduce the average of what his littermates are.
So a dog used for breeding has to have the "natural " ability to begin with, be from a line bred family that consistently shows that "Natural" ability , while also being a top Natural hound with very little training and or hunting /game exposure, that just Naturaly goes out and get's things done consistently and with style hunting wise.

Of course this is just my opinion your mileage may vary.

[mulesNdawgs]

Not a big fan of line breeding they do this allot with cattle I know you shouldn't breed son to mother but can father to daughter and brother to sister imo it's better to throw a new dog into the mix just my 2 cents thrown in