breeding with genetics in mind

[mace]

Good post lot to think about in it . Breed what ever you like an willing to put money an time in . I raised an bred fighting roosters from about the time I was 4 till i was 23 then it became a felony in north carolina then they shut the derbys down . Point is been around it at extreme amounts not 20 or 30 but hundreds full time job for years . It is a little different chickens an hounds but your going after basically the same thing in results make them faster, smarter, stronger, healthier, and better keener instincts trying to have better than everybody elses Theres not really just one way there are better ways. inbreeding shows problems fast results an I mean inbreeding brother sister cross line breeding father daughter cross or mother son is a longer more dragged out process to find problems anytime though the specimens should be perfect before trying any breeding program an another thing you have to raise all pups the same way same feed an everything. Its a long an expensive process that may make yours the best or destroy your line of dogs. Just because the first inbreeding or linebreeding produces good dogs doesnt mean the traits will be past on down to the next generation . One good thing i read some where on the topic years ago , said to use young specimens in the breeding program I always done that worked out quite well in chickens. another thing about it the right diet can make a big difference too

[JTG]

Mace, You made very good points, cockers are way ahead in their breeding programs and I guess that's why a good gamecock sells for more than most hound pups. The only thing I would disagree about is breeding young, with a gamecocks you can test him several times by the time they are two. With hounds, most diseases and other problems do not show up until they are older, so you would not want to breed them too young.
I am in complete agreement in this statement you made--->"specimens should be perfect before trying any breeding program an another thing you have to raise all pups the same way same feed an everything. Its a long an expensive process that may make yours the best or destroy your line of dogs"
FYI, I have a few hatch and gray's.
JTG

Good post lot to think about in it . Breed what ever you like an willing to put money an time in . I raised an bred fighting roosters from about the time I was 4 till i was 23 then it became a felony in north carolina then they shut the derbys down . Point is been around it at extreme amounts not 20 or 30 but hundreds full time job for years . It is a little different chickens an hounds but your going after basically the same thing in results make them faster, smarter, stronger, healthier, and better keener instincts trying to have better than everybody elses Theres not really just one way there are better ways. inbreeding shows problems fast results an I mean inbreeding brother sister cross line breeding father daughter cross or mother son is a longer more dragged out process to find problems anytime though the specimens should be perfect before trying any breeding program an another thing you have to raise all pups the same way same feed an everything. Its a long an expensive process that may make yours the best or destroy your line of dogs. Just because the first inbreeding or linebreeding produces good dogs doesnt mean the traits will be past on down to the next generation . One good thing i read some where on the topic years ago , said to use young specimens in the breeding program I always done that worked out quite well in chickens. another thing about it the right diet can make a big difference too

[mace]

JTG thank you You are right with dogs you can breed diseases an other faults into the strain . I wasnt really plain in what i said . i was trying to warn about breeding old specimens . A specimen in its prime seems to throw healthier an faster offspring . In inbreeding an linebreeding it tends to show all the problems in the strain . I have tryed all this in chickens with alot of succes I have never tryed it with dogs . alot more money in making your on strain of hounds . I learned some of the breeding programs from old bird dog breeding programs . But its always a gamble breeding anything Ive seen it make real good strains an destroy good strains

[mace]

oh yeah what kind of hatch an grays do you got JTG

[JTG]

Mace,
I like your breeding method, when you have an understanding of good breeding practices, it does not matter what you are breeding and that goes for plants and tree's as well. Keeping what in the breeders eye is "good" and culls what the breeder think is bad.
We started with a single trio of Mclean hatch and single trio of Red Richardson grays and never added any new blood. We also have few radio and kelso from the Alabama boys, that I mix with the hatch and grays.

[Diana]

If anyone is interested, a really good book on breeding is "Racehorse Breeding Theories" by Frank Mitchell. One can definitely learn a lot from the breeders of game cocks as well. I have a theory that the most perfect breeds are the ones man gambled on...the thoroughbred, the game cock, the pit dog, the greyhound and perhaps homing pigeons. The selection criteria were very rigorous, because when someone is betting their hard earned money and putting it out there to be proven wrong there isn't much room for excuses or subjectivity. When I call these breeds perfect, what I mean is that they have reached a point where they almost can't be improved on significantly as a breed. When added to other breeds they generally improve them, but when other breeds are added to them it hurts them. Sort of off topic.....

[mace]

with in a breed you have many different strains. a strains is one family that has been line bred or in bred to they are pure which is like 7 generations . When ever you cross one of these strains out on another strain it is a cross no matter if its in the same breed which is adding new blood . Theres also what they call NE blood where theyve been line bred for a significant amount of time then bred to a close cousin niece nephew or so on within the same strain . Theres alot of good things that can come from this making a strain that is , but all specimens have to be perfect . Its possible to breed traits in that you really dont want . Thanks JTG I believe i like the gray kelso crosses better than the hatch kelso crosses I havent never had any radios . I would have to say probably best we had was percy racy mugs lol an i wasnt a fan of them. We got them from an old man he kept the strain pure for 20 years . I never really seen them as dead game birds, but they was fast an won 90 percent of there fights

[CKRHTR]

One good thing i read some where on the topic years ago , said to use young specimens in the breeding program I always done that worked out quite well in chickens. another thing about it the right diet can make a big difference too

This theory exists in competition birddogs as well the general idea is that a dog is more able to replicate himself when bred before 4 years of age. I have a friend that is a production and pedigree nut who has studied the production records of the most successful sires of the english pointer breed. He noticed that when a field champion was bred before the age of 4 it was as much as twice as likely to produce another field champion, conversely if the dog was bred after the age of 6 then the probablity was terrible. Also, this may also help explain why frozen semen breedings almost never tend to produce since the collection is generally done late in the dogs life.

[mace]

I dont really mean to come off like a know it all theres alot of good breeders that knows alot more than me on the subject . CKRHTR about that being a theory in bird dogs that could have been where i adopted it from. This is off subject but changing anythings feed can make them better too

[JTG]

Mace you are correct saying environment, feed, climate etc.. has a big impact on their full potential. If you can get the same related family of hounds and have two different breeders working together, living as far away as possible, and then breed those hounds back and forth with each other, you can avoid many breeding bottlenecks. Deer are a good example, being that the deer in the North are much larger.(body weight.) than the deer in the hotter climates.
There have been case studies, with thousands of different dogs, of different breeds and mixed breeds that show heath issues, usually show up after four. They have already started using DNA mapping to identify genetic health issues, see the canine genome project. Of course most of us with hounds have already come to that conclusion, finding one problem or another that shows up with age. No problem breeding young, if the line is free from genetic defects and related health issues, however that is rarely the case.
So a good breeder will use good breeding practices, not only for hunting ability, but also for confirmation, health and soundness.

[mace]

JTG I think that would help . An I do agree health an confirmation is a big part of a successful breeding program

[slowandeasy]

I dont really mean to come off like a know it all theres alot of good breeders that knows alot more than me on the subject . CKRHTR about that being a theory in bird dogs that could have been where i adopted it from. This is off subject but changing anythings feed can make them better too
mace


Sir,


Don't feel you are coming off like a know it all. No matter how long me or any one in the game is at it. Sometimes it is nice to sit back and just soak information up like a sponge. And this is one of those times. It appears along with JTG you also have much to offer on the hard job of breeding. It would behoove new comers to pay attention. Of course this is just my opinion. And we know what they are. But I think I am at least a tiny bit versed on the subject. Carry on guys, as at least my empty head is enjoying it. Gota go!!!


Take care, Willie

[Matt_Potter]

Ok I grew up on a dairy we raised registered Holstein - I don't know a ton about breeding but I know some.

How can the age or diet of a male have any effect on the genetics he passes on?? It is what it is and shouldn't vary from semen sample to semen sample. Age and diet have a direct effect on fertility but should have no impact on the genetic info being passed.

Matt

[JTG]

Hi Matt, it’s just not diet, but the environment as a whole, that will shape many things, some say as much as 50%. On the age, not just the male but the female as well, especially when first starting to secure traits.
In regards to the female and the male being bred young, health issues, can show up at a later date and if bred, by the time those issues show up, it’s too late and will be pass on to some of their offspring.
The cherry eye is just one example, but there are many things. If you clear many of these items up early in your breeding program, breeding young is not a problem.
Jtg

[mace]

A good diet can change their over all performance. I dont know if it would effect genetics but it will help show their traits . Shows what you have to work with . I really dont know much about environment.