Best way to train young hounds?

[david]

Now if your goal for the day when you go hunting is to put game in a tree then this is the most effective way to do it, but if your goal for the day is to train your young dogs to be the dependable one, then there are other more effective methods...in my opinion.Some guys go to the woods to put game in a tree and others go to the woods to train dogs.There is a difference..

What a great thread Andy. You brought out some heavy hitters. I sure enjoyed reading it and learned some things about myself by reading it.

And before I say anything more, just want to say to any new-comers that recognize me as the author of a book, please don't give any more weight to my reply as to any one else on here. There are many who have shown up on this web-site much more qualified than me to write a book on bobcat hunting. It is just that I did it and they didn't. Mostly because someone developing and maintaining a pack of bobcat dogs does not have much time or energy for stuff like writing books.

I sure related heavily to Trueblues post because I really evolved from going out there to catch cats to going out there to see how much I could get out of a young dog. If I didn't have a young dog to work on, honestly I got bored. It was that young dog that pulled me out of bed when I really wanted to lay there awhile. It was that young dog that sent me to the woods when I sure could have been doing something that made money instead. The young dog called me out of the house in the nastiest of weather when anybody with a little common sense would have stayed in. The young dog had me out there even when conditions were so bad it was 100% certain we could not catch a bobcat.. and 100% certain there were things that young dog could learn toward becoming the best dog she could be.

And that was the driving force for me...that burning question that tortured me until I had the answer: What is the hidden potential of this pup, and what can I possibly do to see ALL of it. Not part of it, but ALL of it. In other words, if this pup gets all the right stimulus at all the right times, what could it possibly become? We all stress intelligence as important. And really I think we are largely talking about problem solving ability when we say intelligence. We also know that the neuro pathways in the brain are formed with use when young. So I value forcing a pup to work out problems on his own. Of course part of his stumulus includes how to key off other dogs. But in my opinion, that is the easiest of all lessons for a pack animal to learn. Largely, I save it for later. So it is never "me too" but "how can we help each other to solve this problem".

I am not trying to find the dog that can get the job done. Not even trying to find the dog that can simply lead the pack. I am trying to develop the dog that makes me smile real big, scratch my head and ask "how in the world did he do that?" And I am left with something to ponder literally for the rest of my life.

This is a tremendous amount of "work" doing things this way. And it is a huge gamble that most folks are not going to take the time for. You can end up putting a lot of time into a dog that genetically was not really worthy of all that effort. And on the other hand, I have had very few dogs trained in this way that would not be very pleasing to most hunters. And when it does turn out to be the dog genetically worthy of all that effort, I have the dog I always wanted. So I get bored, sell it, and start over When put with other dogs for a yardstick, I have felt embarrassment at times, but honestly, it has usually been embarrassment for the other guy and trying to find ways to help him save face. If I have brought out all a dog can genetically be, and get beat, I dont get mad, I get some of those genes and start over. No breed allegiance here. Cant really recommend my system to anyone else. You gotta love dogs a lot more than you love cats.

[Trueblue]

You gotta love dogs a lot more than you love cats.

That one sentence says it all David. Wish I would have thought of it but I'm just not as eloquent as you.

[dwalton]

This is a great post, lots of good stuff. I love training young dogs and have started with very little to work with several times. It is a great way to learn your hunting. For me it has been far harder to train bobcat dogs then lion or bear dogs. A old dog is a great way to go as said. One has to be careful with a dog that is to old on bobcats or it will hold the young dogs back. For me I want a fast moving track dog, If a dog is older he can teach your young dogs to be to slow on trailing to be an effective bobcat dog. I have seen very few dogs over 8 years old that do not cause more problems and hold the young dogs back then they are worth having in their. If you don.t have two to five year old dogs leading the way you need to look at your dogs close something is not working out. Just my opinion does not make it so. Thanks for post there is a lot here for you young hunters. Dewey

[david]

You gotta love dogs a lot more than you love cats.

That one sentence says it all David. Wish I would have thought of it .

You DID think of it. Luckily you are nice and wont sue me for plagiarism.

[Trueblue]

You gotta love dogs a lot more than you love cats.

That one sentence says it all David. Wish I would have thought of it .

You DID think of it. Luckily you are nice and wont sue me for plagiarism.

[twist]

David, this is just what I was hoping would come of it alot of wisdom is being spilled out. Andy

[CRA]

In my opinion a TRUE cat dog will find a way to get its own alone time by taking it from the other monkees. There are so many things a young dog learns from the monkees that we cant teach them or teach them as fast such as getting through or around obstacles. I think "me too" dogs are born and it takes a lot longer to pin it down on em when hunted alone. If a dog has the desire to run a critter down and catch it they will do it regardless of how many dogs are around em. YARDSTICKS!!!!!!!!

Great post Mark!

This entire thread has been very good reading and packed full of valuable thought provoking information and insight.

I can only speak from my own experiences because I have trained young hounds both ways (solo) and (with trained lead dogs). The dogs I trained solo would tree game alone but never made top dogs like the ones that were trained by lead hounds. It was a lot of work, time and money without very impressive results. There was no way to tell what I had to start with in the first place because I didn't have nothing to gauge their performance on. That’s why it’s paramount to seek out proven breeders that have a high percentage of dog’s surviving the cut, for the game you choose to pursue. There is no way to prove the dog’s I trained solo would have made better dogs if I hunted them with lead dogs from the start so it’s just a preference. My preferred way is with lead dogs but there is different ways to skin a cat, so if training pups from solo has worked well for you keep at it.

Any hound hunter that pays attention to all the details of their dogs should have no problem noticing in their dog’s performances, that they have me too’s or lead dogs without having to separate them. Every time a pack of dogs is placed on a track every hound hunter/trainer should be giving each dog an independent performance evaluation on that tracks performance from start to finish and paying full attention to what is actually going on and not just hearing a bunch of dogs bark.

My opinion me-too dogs are always just that, “me-too dogs”. They were born that way regardless of how they were trained, just like lead dogs are natural born lead dogs if owned and trained by a knowledgeable hound hunter that knows hounds and what they are doing while out in the brush.

In the perfect world they would all make “Cat Dogs” and not just “Cat Harassers”. A lot of cats have been treed by cat harassers and a lot of cats have been educated by cat harassers, but every now and then a true “Cat Dog” shows up with a Harvard education on cat catching trained by a true professor of Cat Dogs and makes us all standing in shock and awe looking for better dogs. I have never met a cat hunter not looking for better dogs and didn't love training young dogs.

[Trueblue]

I can only speak from my own experiences because I have trained young hounds both ways (solo) and (with trained lead dogs).

What you have described here is two polar extremes. The first is, training a young dog exclusively by itself. The second is training a young dog exclusively behind "lead dogs". Just so some of us are not being misrepresented here, I want to say that I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating that the best method is doing it exclusively solo, but rather the best way is to do both.

[al baldwin]

Most poor hunters have been forced to start out with young cat harassers, having lots challenges before find a cat hound or two. There are a lot of poor hound hunters in this area, self included. Then throw in some tree climbers , when cats could be hunted in summer, makes for some educated cats. In my opinion hunters who are out to enjoy listening to hounds work, above hunting cats for the money, would much rather have the challenge of a cat that has been trained by harassers. Sure is nice when one can get in a patch of cat that have not had to dodge dogs to survive, or get that perfect snow that makes cat catching seem a lot easier. However, both of those have been hard to find in the areas I have hunted, past several years. To each is own & this has just been my experience. Have enjoyed reading others opinions. Al

[Dads dogboy]

Andy, Thanks for bringing up another GREAT Topic! This is bringing out lots of GOOD info for anyone wanting to TRAIN a young Hound to pursue and Catch/Tree the elusive Short Tail.

Where should a person Start….well 1st I would get a Copy of David’s Book and read it about 3 times, then find the BEST Hunter in your Region and learn how that person makes functional Hounds in your Region.

Yes there are Regional Differences in how to Train Hounds, dictated on the many Geographic and Ecological differences found in the Bobcats Range! There is NO way that South Texan, Southern Fox Hunter or I could “Tighten our Boot laces” and walk out a Track in Texas or anywhere in the South Eastern US.

Now there are things that should be the same, such as BACKGROUNDING a Pup. This means teaching that well researched bought or raised Pup its name, to come when called, to sit, then Teaching the Pup to respond to the Training Collar. These are the common things that can be done no matter the Region in which you live, or whether you live in town or rurally.
The Number 1, MOST Important Rule to remember is to use every tool at your disposal to have the Pup/Pups SUCSEED! Never intentionally or unintentionally set them up to FAIL in the Positive aspects of Pursuing your Game of choice! Never do too much at a time with a Pup as just like Children the Pup has a very short Attention Span. Always reward Positive responses or Actions, this can mean nothing more than lots of petting and sweet talking.

Now those of you like Mark and South Texan who are lucky enough to be able to let the Pup run outside to run Rabbits, this is a great way for the young Hound to learn to use their nose, follow a quarries trail by Scent, and to get around in cover/terrain. This will help the Pup gain confidence in themselves. We, however, are not lucky enough to live where we can let the Pups run out. Therefor our routine is a little different. My Daughter plays with the Pups from about 3 weeks on. As the Pup is getting around better at about 5 weeks old, she starts serious games of Hide and Seek with the Pup. Soon the Pup learns that there is a way other than sight to find its playmate, that the long thing right in front of its eyes, where those good smells originate, can help it find things.

At about 3 months we take the Pup to a Rabbit Pen and let then learn to run follow the bunnies, Hark to another Hound barking, and start to solve scenting/trailing problems. This lasts till the Pup/Pups are starting to regularly pressure the Rabbits into holes or start catching them. This method should be able to be done almost anywhere in the US as there are Beagle clubs with Rabbit Pens, who if approached properly and an offer of payment for use when Pen is not being used, will let you START a Pup. Just make sure that you cease the Rabbit running before the Pup/Pups start catching the Clubs Bunnies!

Now (approx. 5 months of age) it is time to progress to the Fox Pen for another progression in the Pups Education. About 2 trips a week for 3 to 6 weeks will have the Pup/Pups learning how to not only follow a Track closely (Track Straddling with the Rabbit) but to pick their Heads up and take the Scent line, which may not be right where the Fox has put its feet. This teaches the young Hound to “Run the Game” not just follow the track. In most cases we will use an old Fox Hound the 1st few times to “TEACH” the Students the proper way to run a Fox. Again most of you will have a Fox or Yote Pen close enough to where you live so that you too came use this method.

Now the Bobcat Hound candidate is at the point of starting its apprenticeship with the Pack, or if we have several Young Hounds we will pull one of the Pro Start and Trail Hounds from the Pack and run the youngsters with this Pro alone for several months. This allows the Youngsters to be Contributors in a Race, rather than merely Participants much sooner in their development. A word of Caution though, do not use a Pro Hound who is a “Has Been” and is so wore out that it cannot deal with the pressure the Young Hounds will put on it. This Old Hound can go from an Asset to Liability quickly if it gets jealous and starts to “Stand on its Head” bogging down on a Track, Backtracking or any other BAD Habit that it would not have done years before.

Folks, after 53 years of Bobcat Hunting, Dad never found a way to set his Young Hounds down in front of a Blackboard and use Xs and Os to teach/train those Hounds in the Theory, Strategy, and Methodology to be used to successfully end a Bobcat Race. He would always say that the only way for a Hound to Learn to Run a Bobcat was to RUN a Bobcat. This is why he never said a Hound was a Bobcat Hound until it was in its 4 year and had been in on solving several hundred Bobcat Races in the Regions we Hunt!

I know some of you will read the above Paragraph and say once again how full of BS I am…..to quote Juan Pablo from the Bachelor TV Show… “It’s OK”. I know that there ARE places where you can take an Intelligent, Soundly made Pup, tighten your boot laces and walkout a track, and aid the Pup in solving Bobcat tricks. You who do this generally have Snow, and more open topography than South Texan, Southern Fox Hunter or we do. You are able to make a single “Truck to Tree” Hound. Different Ecosystems will preclude this!

Using the Pack to train a Young Hound to FULLY express its Genetic Potential is not putting a bunch of Monkeys in the woods to play Monkey See Monkey Do. But much more of an Apprenticeship Program whereby the Young Hound is “Set Up to Succeed”! One Truck to Tree Hound has YET to appear to take me up on our offer to Show us here in the South Eastern Pine Cutovers that it can be successful. I imagine Mr. Robbie (South Texan) would be interested in seeing this Hound Also, and like us would try to own said Hound to better what we have in Hounds.

Is all that I have written above the "Best way to train young Hounds", I do not know. I do know that it has worked for Dad for a long time, has produced Hounds who can Catch a Bobcat.

Thanks to all who contribute to the knowledge we all gain from here!

[mark]

Whats your best way to train young hounds on bobcat? Behind older dog or not. Lets hear your thoughts and why. Andy

Behind older dog or NOT.

[Trueblue]

Whats your best way to train young hounds on bobcat? Behind older dog or not. Lets hear your thoughts and why. Andy

Behind older dog or NOT.

Forgive me for intruding on a private conversation.

[mark]

Not a private discussion, just pointing out that it was a polar opposite question.