In its prime vs pup trainer

[mark]

I do, even the ones that dont get to run loose around here. Even if a pup cant stay up it gives me a chance to see how they react. A pup that gets left behind but still comes through and ends up where it is suppose to speaks volumes to me. Does it bark non stop, does it open every once in awhile, or dead silent all tell me a little about what it will be like down the road. I guess maybe its as much for me as it is the pup. They dont get many chances to just quit and come out for me, someone else can milk them through that. By pup i mean 5-6 months old to start on cats some earlier on occasion. I am real patient with pups on most things but not figuring out how to stay in a race or at least pouring their guts out trying to. Once they get that figured out they will get their chance to be the hero on other aspects a cat race.

[scrubrunner]

When I don't have a good solid older hound that's just slowed down a little to start a pup with I've started a bunch of them just like Mark says. But I think they learn to hunt and trail a little quicker with the older dog. Either way by a year old they should be getting some pick ups with the pack and be there when it's over. That said now my experience is only with running hounds.

[mondomuttruner]

I guess there's so many variables that everybody's got their own way of doing things. The age of the pup when season is open? The number of opportunities the pup gets put down like lets say, per week? The number of other guys you hunt with which in turn means there's probably another pup or two in there. Bottom line is, if it works for you, do it.
I don't mind letting a pup work a track from behind but you gotta give them a "bone" once in a while.

[twist]

Any one that has the time and cats to turn a young dog out with anything but their best is telling you a bs story. Andy

[al baldwin]

Any one that has the time and cats to turn a young dog out with anything but their best is telling you a bs story. Andy

Sure I turn them out with what I have, just thought the young hunter was asking about the idea situation & all will have their own opinion as should be. The situation I described was exactly like what I experienced with one pack I owned. Could not help noticing how well it worked when starting young dogs. Would love to have those two hounds as a team today. Al

[scrubrunner]

Most of ours was started on gray fox and was running them very well befor they graduate to running cats!

[Tim Pittman]

Amen to what Mark said, along with Willie, Al, Dewey. Not worth much,but here is my take. I take pups[6 months old] out with the pack also to evaluate a couple times. The ones that run up to the front, keep their mouth shut, I don't have to rescue, I keep hunting. The ones that lack in any of these requirements get locked up for 2 weeks to 2 months, and then tried a few times again. By the time they are a year, I've got a good idea of their personality[traits]. Depending on where they grade at they'll get hunted with 1 or 2 lead dogs until I can see what I'm looking for, then back to pack environment. As they start to really contribute in starting and cold trailing [usually giving mouth at this stage/when they contribute] I pull them again and hunt them with 1 lead dog a few times, the gifted and rock stars will USUALLY shine along in this stage. To me I've never bought,raised, or started a dog not intending it to be my next lead dog replacement, so I would not consider running it with any less than my very best. Periodical times though this I take them out by themselves or with one other young dog to observe their confidence and to test desire, ability to start their own game good or bad. As I get to locate and tree issues or strengths , I do all these last steps again. As far as the rigging goes, any rigs dogs I've had just started doing it and usually clean up easy, getting them on plenty of cats. Did have a female once didn't rig until I sold a dog and she moved into second position in pack[ literally within a couple of days]. All of this is mixed between hunting from rig, foot , and horseback. Which I firmly believe the foot/horseback hunting is invaluable !!!

[merlo_105]

Now are you guys throwing the pups out during the cold trail or only when jumped? The first ten cats so the first 2 1/2 weeks I'll toss them out on a jumped race when the dogs bring it across the road after that it just depends how cold the track is. If its to cold and the young dogs could lose interest or get on crap I'll wait till the tracks warmed up, each dog gets worked a little different. My little running cross dog she never got to go threw a puppy coarse, She was tossed in from the start on cold trails with the big dogs she was making every tree at 8 months old. I got her at 6 months old went to Alaska two weeks later for two months so when I got back I put her with the big dogs and her third race from start to finish she made and she has made everyone since then. I only own two dogs now her who is 12 months old and a 2 1/2 year old. Been lucky to hunt with another guy to get them on a lot of good game and no trash. The last couple cats I caught the 12 month old caught solo. Box to tree, didn't locate or tree but walked in and seen her sitting at the tree. Good enough for government work.

[mark]

Dewey, if Al does the math on that he probably wont be as hard on ya in the future.

[slowandeasy]

Just to clarify maybe for some of the people reading. When some of us are turning young dogs with finished dogs (dog).They really are young dogs that have been turned loose around the place, or took for a lot of walks from weaning age to the five to seven month age being spoken about. They no their name , handle pretty well, and are not green as grass. There is some mental and physical maturity being shown. If you are going to take a pup shortly after it gets of the tit and throw in the meat grinder. Well, your probably going to get just what ya deserve. A rattle brained ruined pup. Also ALL of the gentleman that are participating in this conversation that I know. Are very fast at recognizing what ones they want to continue to feed. And don't have any intention of waiting until the youngsters are collecting social security for culling.


Quote Tim Pittman : All of this is mixed between hunting from rig, foot , and horseback. Which I firmly believe the foot/horseback hunting is invaluable !!!

IMPORTANT piece of information, as until you allow the dogs to make their own decisions away from the rig. You really don't know how straight they are.



Take care, Willie

[david]

The last couple cats I caught the 12 month old caught solo. Box to tree, didn't locate or tree but walked in and seen her sitting at the tree. Good enough for government work.

Merlo, I got good news for you. If she was at the tree by herself she definitely did locate. Sounds like a nice young dog.

[kordog]

I realize it can vary from dog to dog, but on average, at what age would say a dog has gone from being a high producing dog to more of a "pup trainer" ??

No set answer to when a hound stops being a high producing dog, all different & Dewey gave excellent examples of reasons why some last longer than others. I differ a bit on my opinion, feel running pups with hard going dog in their prime can cause young hounds to get too far behind in a hard race. I would prefer a medium speed trainer who has a calling voice & uses it enough to keep those pups interested & able to stay close enough to allow them a chance to track the critter. There can be a point when those young hounds start to pull ahead, (I hope), when that occurs if the old hound starts to pull the pups back to then it is time to make a decision is the old hound doing more harm than good. If that one hound is all you have as a trainer, don/t be to quick release it from your possession, I have made that mistake, especially when hunting bobcat.
My idea situation has been to have a faster hound that pulls out on the medium speed trainer, insuring more catches, then have the trainer with that calling voice to insure the pups reach the tree.
In my opinion one of the most important jobs of any train is to be reliable to start & trail only the game of your choice. Have found young hounds hunted with trashy trainers, become trashy hounds & then have been very hard to break, dogs are like people, old habits are to change completely.
Hope this helps some young hound men. Trust my reason for posting is not to become famous, if it was I would be saying I catch a higher percentage than I have posted. Al

im with you al id hate to think i had to start over with bottled scent lol those older trusted dogs are a valuable commodity .the older dogs can sure make training easy.i will say that about 8 is when ive seen the speed start to really suffer where it is going show significantly . it is easy to take old dogs for granted when you have young dogs starting to crank.but the truth is there are alot of houndsman that go to the woods with dogs that would sure benefit from one of those veteran hounds leading the way.not to mention the education of the houndsman.a good old dog sure taught me alot.there is a difference between older and washed up.

[dwalton]

We all have our own way of starting a pup it all works. Just as we all have the type of hound we like. Tim and Willie have made some good points on pups to young. I feel pups can be to young to start with older dogs and not the basic done around home. I start my pups on game latter than most of you it sounds like. A pup is not ready to take into the woods until it is tone trained, over car sickness,Loads, comes when called and has some muscle tone and as said can keep up. I walk my pups out of home a lot, first when they are to young to start game and let them run lose. I don't like them running off game and try to avoid that. As they get older They walk with me and the older dogs, being toned when they get flighty on trash so they come back to me[ deer breaking] I seldom every have to shock a dog for deer. Most never run or leave a cold by the time I take them to the woods. Walking on the hill with 7 older dogs and 10 under 12 months I have seen 16 out of 17 dogs under a tree. I do not believe drags work well and do not use them any more. The best looking dog on a drag my never make a good dog. There is only one way to catch a bobcat and make a bobcat dog. You have to hunt bobcats. Just because a dog trees a bobcat that does not make him a bobcat dog. You have to be a good knowledgeable bobcat hunter before your dogs can be. I think here lies the problem for most young guys starting out they get the cart before the horse. Dewey

[merlo_105]

The last couple cats I caught the 12 month old caught solo. Box to tree, didn't locate or tree but walked in and seen her sitting at the tree. Good enough for government work.

Merlo, I got good news for you. If she was at the tree by herself she definitely did locate. Sounds like a nice young dog.

David, I know she had them located rather then the track ended and she thought hmmm they might be around here so I'm going to hangout in this spot. Just not gonna sit and post I got a 12 month old running cross that's locating cats in big Timber. If you know what I mean. I'm very pleased with her she does good. I'm going to go see how she does against a friends pack this coming season THE YARDSTICK so to speak...

[twist]

Merlon, if you dont mind me asking who is the gentleman dogs you are going to measure your young dogs up too and what part of the country will you be running them in? Just curious. Andy