A dog that uses sight as much as its nose

[kansas0311]

I have a female that is all about hunting. I let her chase rabbits around the yard. Once they are jumped she wants to use her vision as much as her nose. If the grass is taller than her eyes she will jump in the air, while running the track. To see if she can see or hear the rabbit, which I think is a good trait. My one question is since she relies on her sight a lot. Will she want to just chase whatever moves, if so how do I get to not break on something moving. Maybe I am just paranoid but I would rather not have 10 mile walk in A$$ deep snow to get her back from a trash race this year. Thanks for any advice

[Budd Denny]

This is one of those things that after switching over to all beagles on hare I now have a different opinion on. I have seen cat dogs and beagles use there eyes in a lot of situation's when on snow but I think in the end it cause's lost time and sometimes ends the race, other times it carries the dogs forward enough to find sufficient scent to make the track runnable. I would much rather the dog keep their nose on the ground!!! I would quit running her on rabbit because she is apparently putting enough pressure on them that she can see them. I have a small acre starting pen for beagle pups and as soon as I seen them start looking more for the rabbit instead of running the track with their nose I pull them from the pen for good.

[david]

This is one of those things that after switching over to all beagles on hare I now have a different opinion on. I have seen cat dogs and beagles use there eyes in a lot of situation's when on snow but I think in the end it cause's lost time and sometimes ends the race,

There is an awful lot Budd knows that I don't know. So I would pay close attention to what he says. But I will give you a less educated opinion (and I mean that, I have never had beagles and been able to watch the dogs and the game so much and in every conceivable situation).

When I was a coon hunter, I felt the same as what Budd is saying. Sounds like if I was a rabbit hunter I would also, unless I wanted dogs to catch the rabbit. Most rabbit hounds are not designed to catch the rabbit. (Just as many wonderful coon hounds are not designed to catch the coon on the ground). I made a few decisions aimed at preventing the dogs from getting used to relying on sight.

I might still feel that way if I had not experienced a couple dogs that I know were using their eyes and ears on bobcat. They were open mouthed all the way. Had nice big voices. They forced me to re-think everything I thought I knew. Their speed and efficiency at forcing a bobcat to stop was so smooth and natural that it forced me to know there was a whole other level to this thing that I did not even know existed. They both could put their nose down when they needed to. And they could both trail heads up when conditions allowed. And when they heard and saw the cat, they had the sprint speed to stop it then and there. If a dog lacked that extra gear to finish it, maybe the eyes would have been a disadvantage. I cant speak to that. (there have been many times and places and people where a heads-up hunter would have been culled. Still are. This is a long time traditional view for some folks). The only real drawback I could see with these dogs was the shortness of the race, because when they used their ears and eyes it:

sometimes ends the race,

In the areas where bobcats will tree out ahead of the dogs, this discussion probably has no relevance. But for areas where they must be stopped on the ground, I think it is an important discussion.

It seems like Budd is at least partly referring to the dogs using their eyes to see and follow tracks in snow. That would be a different topic than closing the gap on the animal by sight and sound, in my opinion. A topic worthy of discussion, also!

As far as them bolting off track at the sight of an animal moving: Have you ever pheasant hunted? Did you ever shoot a hen by accident? It might happen, but probably not with an experienced pheasant hunter. I would say the same for dogs. a puppy might try bolting off track at the sight of a deer running, for example, but it was not a problem for me with experienced bobcat dogs. You will have to deer break her, and she will most definitely learn the difference between how a cat looks and how any other animal looks. If her eyes deceive her, her nose will quickly correct the error.

Can you imagine how impaired you would be if you had no eyes or ears? We gather information for our brain to process through our senses. There is good reason hounds were bred to focus their information gathering to their nose. Those hounds were not originally developed for stopping a sprinting bobcat on the ground though.

Is letting your dog play with rabbits in the yard going to create problems for you in the future? I guess that is your main question. My honest answer is: "I don't know". You will probably know a year from now if you can get her on a bunch of bobcats, and I hope you will let us know what you found out. If it does cause problems, I feel they will be easily remedied. A dog trashing on a rabbit would be the very least of your concerns. She is old enough to be hunted hard on tree game now. I hope you have the game available and the laws allowing it and the time to do it. My dogs did not show interest in off game in the yard or anywhere else once they were properly focused on what we were about. It will just take hunting her a lot on your game of choice, and correcting her when she makes a mistake. I sure want to know how she turns out.

Myself, I like it when I notice a dog using all of it's senses to gather information about the quarry.

[david]

People are going to wish I had never got a phone that would let me post on BGH.

What I don't like about your situation,Kansas, is that you are not in a situation to have gotten her on a few cats by this age. What I do like about it is that she is learning something in your yard. Most people won't let a dog fool with off game by the time they are old enough to seriously hunt and work hard. But if she has learned that going airborn gives her a moment of silence to listen, and gives her a better view at the same time, then she has learned how to use a hunting tool that could make all the difference in closing the gap on a bobcat.

I try really hard to keep my dogs from learning certain things. Like how much fun it can be to chase a deer. I try to have them green broke befor I ever turn them loose in the field. But I also feel so strongly that if I want a thinking dog I have to keep him learning SOMETHING as often as possible. Where as a deer chase can and has completely ruined a day of cat hunting, I have absolutely never seen a bump on rabbit destroy a day of hunting. I think that if you can not get her learning about cat right now, at least she is learning SOMETHING. And it might actually be something she can apply to cat hunting some day.

[Budd Denny]

David I was talking about hounds using their eyes on snow following tracks, not when they see the desired game. When the stars,moon,sun line up just perfect the beagles catch a hare and when they do the last 10 yards or so will be a site chase. Can't blame them for coming off the line when game is in site.. Maybe I will go threw some of my clips and find a good example of what I am referring to about wasted time and effort checking dimples in the snow.

[twist]

If a person is hunting snow conditions a dog that learns to use its eyes wil out perfom a track to track stradler. I call it brains as its just one more advantage for the hound. Also one that learns to use thier eyes at the tree make for some nice stay put tree material. Andy

[LarryBeggs]

Andy, agree with you and David that it can help a cat track along. But have also seen it blow up a cold cat race.Was working a cold cat track over east one of the few times i hunted over there. Had maybe gotten two barks on the cat track not sure if they smelled it or were sight trailing it. Then a pretty long lose.Then they go out trailing but only one dog barking. Not moving fast but fast enough should of had more than one dog barking. They make a long lose. I go out there in some pretty thick stuff and dont find anything but rabbit tracks. They pick the track up and off they go again. Maybe I just miss the cat track. This goes on for about an hour still only one dog barking.Walk out there again. Nothing but hundreds of rabbit tracks going in every direction. I trailed the dogs a while and realized they were only moving the track when one rabbit track would get sorted out from the hundreds of others. That dog was trying to sight track a hundred rabbits at once. It wasnt working to good. Maybe if he knew how to tell the difference between what a rabbit track and a cat track looked like it would have worked out better. Take care, larry

[mike martell]

This is a topic that is hard to monitor in the field hunting large packs of hounds. I had a dog years ago that used his eyes as much as his nose and his eyes seemed to serve him well...I was mainly lion hunting on the large ranches in N.E. Oregon at the time and hunted just two dogs, all on foot many times starting an old track at first light and ending it long after sunset....One dog was my Kate dog from David's old line and a dog named Amos, a direct son of Woodscreek Loose Bruce.

I would find a cat track and put the dogs down and they began sorting the tracks out...Lots of these cat tracks would be obliterated by deer and elk that wintered in the same country....When Amos was on a cat he could not open on, he would begin to drift....My question was how could a dog possibly know if it was a cat or trash track and continue to drift the track out? I suspect he had enough cat scent to make his mind up it was good otherwise he would simply dimple any and all tracks out of the country...Something he never did...

This country is wide open and you can often spot dogs a half mile away. Many times Amos would be spotted on the opposite side of the canyon moving the cat while Kate grubbed away...This same hound was tight mouthed and when he opened he was not far behind the game. Every place Amos was spotted a cat track was later observed in that location on the snow....

Kate would grub and bump that track for a good distance then get way behind Amos and then she would pick her head up and close the distance to him as if she knew he had the track....This expedited the trailing to the jump in a way shorter fashion....I can see where this could back fire on a guy hunting cats on snow with a large pack of hounds and not something I want in my dogs if I could have a choice but found it to be useful for shortening the distance of a traveling cat....

Brains? Prey drive fueled by desire and somewhat of a lacking nose? Who knows? I bet all of Amos littermates were different than him and just the luck of the draw if you like this style dog....Keep in mind these dogs were competition coon bred and what I described Amos as being probably would not fit the coon hound world. Probably the only reason why Harold Dickerson parted with him? Another thought just popped up....Those handlers would drop those dogs in large blocks where they went far and wide to get struck on a coon, sometimes out a half mile or so....Could that be why this dog drifted by eye sight in the snow so well, knowing he had to get gone to get struck?

Mike

[david]

Just wanted to point out to the casual observer of this thread: there are two really good, but entirely different topics being discussed here. Both are worthy of thought and discussion:
1) dogs who use their eyes and ears to help them locate the movement and close on the physical body of their quarry.
2) dogs who use their eyes to help them follow tracks in the snow.

[mike martell]

Just wanted to point out to the casual observer of this thread: there are two really good, but entirely different topics being discussed here. Both are worthy of thought and discussion:
1) dogs who use their eyes and ears to help them locate the movement and close on the physical body of their quarry.
2) dogs who use their eyes to help them follow tracks in the snow.

Good points David.


I don't see it as two separate topics with observations of this one particular hound.....

Amos was dog 2. at the start of trailing and dog 1. When jumped....Possibly why he didn't like to open on track until he was looking at his game....Many lion and bears were riddled up the back legs from this dog planting teeth in both because he got on the game so fast and stealthy.

[david]

It will be interesting to find out if Kansas' dog will also display both traits. With the two dogs I spoke of I never saw them in situations where I knew for sure they were trailing snow tracks completely by sight so I don't know. I have seen them check many tracks that they saw, but scent from the track, or the absense of it, seemed to tell them what was next.

I have seen plenty of dogs that would take a cat track and sprint down the road with it, and I know they were going faster than scent would have allowed them to. But these were not always dogs that often caught cats on the ground.

Not ready to say that all dogs who do one will also do the other. But would guess that most sight catchers would figure out sight trailing if it helped them to their goal.

[david]

I have heard lion hunters from big windy country speak of the sight trailing trait with fondness.

[mike martell]

I have heard lion hunters from big windy country speak of the sight trailing trait with fondness.

Now you are touching on why I like the drifting of the running dog cross....Certain winter snow desert conditions prevail in bobcat hunting too....I have observed top trailing hounds blow out while the drifting dog continued...I believe done so without scent of any kind and drifting style alone once a track was established and heading in a certain direction, influence of the running dog takes over....Huge difference in both, some call it brains...I disagree in all aspect and simply call it style, this is traits found in the different dogs and one reason for quitting the full hounds all together, some hounds possess these traits but the running dog is wanting to advance the track and the tree dog is wanting to tree hence the reason for more slick trees in the coon hound made bobcat hound world.........

Amos was crossed three times to Kate and reproduced some top notch bobcat dogs and those were Bucco who had an uncanny style of getting a bobcat off a gravel road and littermate Nikki the track straddle to mention just a few. Bottom line? They all reverted back to their blood ancestry and that leads me to think Amos was conditioned to the type hunting and his style......

[mike martell]

I made the comment about not wanting to own one of these type hounds for long...That is correct when hunting big game and having only one dog that gets out and hooked up, one dog can handle game but the odds of getting a dog injured are greatly enhanced with only one hound on the top end of a track........I like running together and catching together and a mix of like style dogs....

I think this is going to be a tough topic to get solid feed back over real situations in the field...Hope I'm wrong and want to hear about different dogs.

[Jeff Eberle]

I have watched these Cur dog x's that I hunt, As pups in the yard hunt gophers for hour, They will dig like mad men then stop and listen maybe 30-45 sec. turn their head listen some more then pounce to the left or right of the hole that they were digging in and start digging again more times then not they will end up killing the gopher. I've put the older ones down on older lion tracks in the snow and put their nose in it and leave running following the track and stop every 100 yds or so and stick their nose back in the track as to check to make sure it was still the right track. I like a dog that will use it ears, eyes, and nose as needed. I look at it as two guys fighting one of them only throws his right the other guy throws both and on top of that will kick and bit you poke you in the eye what ever it takes to win, I've always been the kind of guy that would rather look bad and win then to look good and lose. SORRY DAVE, I KNOW I JUST ADD A 3rd DOG TO THE HUNT