The Dog won't make it!

[Varminator]

I know that most of us has had a pup or young dog that looks, acts and seems like the "ONE"!
But he or she is not coming along as fast as you were hoping.
How long or old will you keep trying before you decide the dog won't make it.

Sometimes it seems all is lost, then a light bulb go's on and the dogs back on the team and just gets better from there. Then again some dogs have a dead bulb and never turn on.

I'm writing this to let younger hunters know, sometimes you have to give up on some dogs making it.

I always give them plenty time and chances, while J.C. will cut my time in half mainly looking for naturals. I'm beginning to think he's right!!

[mike martell]

Brad

I find a dog either has it or it doesn't. I'm with J.C....By the time a young dog is around eight months old, it better grasp the game....At least the basics and I'm not talking about handling, loading etc. better be making the races....Handling should be pretty text book for the dog before the first trip to the woods.

I know I have given up on some potentially nice dogs but draw the line right here.... Making excuses much beyond is just a waste of time.... I don't get to excited if the dog is not treeing at this point because they will come into it sooner or later. I evaluate treeing on a different scale....

This of course is based on starting and working extensively with a puppy or young dog daily.

Mike

[Varminator]

Mark,
Your saying 8 months, if you are spending lots of time with it Correct ?

[southern fox]

I have running dogs only never used a tree dog, I start most of mine if I have 4 or more pups on grey fox, in a small pen, I never start a dog till he is around 10 months old and by that time it has clicked for most, if he will run in the pen and give tongue while running I have lots of patience with him most running dogs don't start shining till they reach abt 3 years old , I believe its like playing a game of baseball , a highschool player cant play with professionals it takes time, if he ran in the pen and gave tongue, and would make pick ups on a lose I don't worry cause unless he is slow as a turtle he will get up sooner or later, and one that's a year old can not out do a 5 year old on trailing, striking or running cause he cant run thru the bushes like the 5 year old, I have seen people get rid of a lot of dogs to soon, and then later wish they hadn't, get there hineys spanked with one they gave away ! patience is the key in my opinion with a hound, I have had the same bloodline for a long time, most will do the same as the others I have had over the years , so usually I know abt what im getting befor there born

[al baldwin]

To each his own, but to me giving up on a 8 month old hound is not something I could recommend. While I like fast starting hounds, have experience a few that were not at all impressive at a year old, however when they were around two was very glad i still owned them. There are some who never make it & knowing when to cull can be a tough call. Al

[david]

It is a great question. One thing I have noticed is that hunters seem to learn the type of dog they do best with as a trainer/handler. They probably are not seeing it that way, they just see it as "this dog is great" or "this dog will never make it". But as an extreme example I know of a hard hunter who makes some great dogs. But they have to have a certain personality or they will never make it with that hunter. He has one way of doing things and does the same with every dog. If that dog can thrive under that particular style, then it makes a great dog. If it can not thrive under that extreme style, it is ruined. And he has come to recognize that type of personality in a dog very young. So he can easily see at a young age "The Dog won't make it". I know for a fact some dogs that went on and made great dogs, that he correctly assessed would not make it with him. In fact, he has bought dogs he earlier rejected, after they had been trained and hardened by some one else.

The time it takes to make the cut will vary obviously with the hunter. But I think a person might get to know fairly quickly the type of dog that seems to thrive under their hunting/training style. They might not know "this is that dog of a lifetime I have been waiting for" right away. But they might know fairly quickly "The dog won't make it" with me.

To put it in a very subjective way: do you like the dog? For me, if the answer to that question is "no", I probably wont keep it. Life is too short to hunt a dog I don't enjoy.

[Varminator]

Sorry! My last post was to Mike not Mark, I know that Mark never culls!!! Touche,LOL

[coastrangecathunting]

I say if a pup at 8 months old is not leaving the road trying as hard as it can to be with the other dogs , some one else can have it. I am looking for fast starting natural dogs. There are to many around that a plain and simple culls. When a natural pup comes along , u know it right off. They are always in the right spot from a young age . Why would I want anything else? lol.
There is more to just wanting to be a hunting dog that I look for . At 8 months old I first and for most look at the pups build. if it is not built to run , its gone. I like a dog that has a longer body . " my dad taught me that " They seem to be able to run better longer faster. Next I want a pup to have a super desire to be with the other dogs. This makes the training of this pup super easy. All u have to do is turn it loose with the old dogs and they will train it for u.
Sounds pretty easy don't it. lol
Next question.

[scrubrunner]

I have a lot of patience if a pup shows interest or is just slow catching on, I've kept some that didn't make it till they were two years old because I liked their personality or felt by their breeding they'd click. Now they were going with the dogs, but they were just there. I have almost no patience with a babbler, or one opening behind or out of place. I cull them quick, sometimes too quick but I am not having fun when I can hear a hound with my name on the collar that is a detriment with the chase even if it is a pup.

[coastrangecathunting]

x2 scrubrunner. I will NOT put up with a do that bark out of place. I can send my dogs half a mile away to another dog and they will no bark until they get there. Not trained to do so. naturals. There are dogs out there that don't need trained. just exposed to game. naturals.

[scrubrunner]

You're right coastrange, I can try to teach them what not to run and what I want them to run but I can't teach HOW to run anything. I can't smell it and the hounds are prolly smarter than me anyhow! Thinking about David's perspective on the matter the ones that make with me might haf to be.

[mike martell]

Mike,
Your saying 8 months, if you are spending lots of time with it Correct ?

Brad

That is correct. One thing I'm going to never repeat is having late fall born pups...By the end of season they are just figuring things out and season closes and they don't get hunted like they should, I owe it to the dog to keep them longer than normal under these conditions.....I'm striving to have a young dog be around 5-7 months at the beginning of season so I have the next several months to make progress evaluations.

Here is my situation...I hunt more than most guys on average and going to the ranch next week until November with the dogs on location being able to hunt 7 days per week. I can be on a gray fox in two minutes watching for one to jump the road down there.....I have two pups now at four months of age and they should be getting with the program by the end of the year at 10 months....Every situation and handler is different...I cull for things most don't see in a hound, timid or shy.....Gone...I like desire to please in a young dog.... mother nature is going to set that desire back a few notches...I like having all the components before I turn the dog down for the first time....If I don't like the dog, It's over...

I think if a man is content with allowing a hound to reach two or three years before culling? I can only say why? With the life span of a hound being so short at three years, you are closing in on 1/3 the life of the good side of the average hound......

Set the bar high and get ready for a reality check!

Mike

[Varminator]

Mike, sounds like you and J.C. are on the same page. And I agree with both of you if the pup has had plenty of time in the brush. Most the younger hunters can't afford to hunt 4-7 days a week to expose the pup to the woods or game. Do you think they should give their pup a little more time or find a natural that some one might give or sell.

[kordog]

a pup for me has to show interest and be gamey by eight months and i like to see it before that in the line i have.i pay atention to the ones that are the most natural and balanced for what i require of them for future breedings and pups.my hounds are two . i sold my start dog with these young hounds going into their 3rd bear season i expect to do well ,but it could bite me in the azz.

[mike martell]

Mike, sounds like you and J.C. are on the same page. And I agree with both of you if the pup has had plenty of time in the brush. Most the younger hunters can't afford to hunt 4-7 days a week to expose the pup to the woods or game. Do you think they should give their pup a little more time or find a natural that some one might give or sell.

Brad

When I started out I managed to ruin several young hounds I would give anything to own today, back then I wouldn't recognize a natural if it bit me in the butt.....And yes, I would recommend a young hunter not make a quick decision on cutting a dog if just getting started in hounds....I vividly remember an old houndsmen by the name of Frank Gilmour....I met Frank when I was around 19. Frank asked my age and when I replied he blurted out, You can't possibly own a good hound, you are too young....That made me mad, looking back the man was spot on......The days before e-collars-gps- cell phones- computers-telemetry and I had trashy hounds! The school of hard knocks is/was a good thing because it helps you understand getting it wrong all the time!

This is a game that their are no short cuts and you get out what you put in....Experience and wisdom help expedite the process and not having a mentor will take you the long way around the barn....Having these post to read and reread is huge for the younger viewers. Not sure if some totally understand some of the contributors here have decades of experience and fortunate for being able to glean information to make training more successful. I learn a lot even today by examining the input from others....One thing stands clear, if you don't set the bar high you will never reach excellence, one must demand a lot from a hound and that requires a commitment from the handler as well.

Just about time to sign off bgh for several months....

Good hunting to all!

Mike