lost cats

[al baldwin]

Let/s say you are training a young pack of west coast bred hounds on bobcat here in big timber areas of the Oregon Coast. Have not developed a good locator on bobcat yet, will you lose more bobcats from not having that locator or will you lose more cat because of their track style? On average. Al

[LarryBeggs]

Nice to finally meet you the other day Al. I have always leaned toward the idea that I would rather go to two or three false trees a winter than know that I treed cats that the dogs didnt locate on. But I dont want to go to to many more than that either. At the same time With the right dogs you shouldnt have more than a few jumped tracks a winter that dont wind up with caught cat. But that is going to very a lot depending on the country your hunting.I dont have dogs like that right now but I have seen and hunted with dogs that it was rare that a jumped cat got away on the coast. Those dogs didnt fail to locate but the few that got away were either in roads or occasionally a false tree in the thinning. Those dogs were not perfect. They were hunted buy a guy with a full time job.Those dogs would catch around 30 cat a winter. If I remember right our season ended Jan. 31st back then. I seen enough from those dogs that I dont doubt for a second the large numbers some of these guys that are hunting nearly full time throw out there. I think there is a big difference in what is needed for a tree dog depending on the experience of the hunter and the amount of game they are able to put there dogs on.Take care, Larry

[Varminator]

I want track style and hopefully locating with come.

[mike martell]

Al.

I would rather struggle with locating knowing the cat is up because of track style dogs. You can't locate on what doesn't climb.

Mike

[Varminator]

Al, you have been a straight cat hunter for the 45 yrs that I've known you. I'll ask you what do you mean losing the cat because of the track style.
1- Dog standing on his head and progresses to slow to ever catch?
2- To hyper or high headed over running the track so much that it can't stay on top of the cat?
3- To Dumb to find away around obstacles such as bluffs,windfall patches,roaring streams,etc?
When you say lost the cat because of not locating.
1- Dog not treeing at all?
2- Dog treeing on every bush?
3- Dog slick trees after a bad lose?
I think this will help someone to answer your question. Remember some good locate dogs don't catch and some catch dogs don't locate!!

I think that is why we like the running/tree dog cross. If you hit a "nick" your chances of getting a complete dog "I feel" is much higher.

[al baldwin]

Brad my question was poorly worded. I have always felt when training a young pack & had progressed to a point they were able to catch some cats, often I questioned myself, how many of these lost tracks are resulting in cats treed, but dogs failing to locate. I come to suspect about half of those tracks resulted in cats treed but dogs failed to locate. The question was what other hunters had experienced in this area, with the same situation. Cat hunting for me has always been a never ending challenge. Recently, visiting with Rene he made the comment I always loved training young dogs. Really I did not, just always looking for something better, so sold a few and kept looking. Most of the times before finding better than sold, was regretting the sale. By track style, just referring that most of these South Coast bred hounds are stronger track than tree & that is what is needed to have a decent catch rate on bobcat. Hard to find those good balanced hounds. Al

[david]

Do you guys still lose cats on roads out there? I know I did when I was out there. IF you would include that in the "track style" category and add it to all other non-tree losses, I would have probably put my lost cats at about 65/35 track style to tree. These were dogs of long ago and far away though. might not even be relevant to this discussion of today's great cat dogs.
Was looking long and hard for better track dogs.

[al baldwin]

Do you guys still lose cats on roads out there? I know I did when I was out there. IF you would include that in the "track style" category and add it to all other non-tree losses, I would have probably put my lost cats at about 65/35 track style to tree. These were dogs of long ago and far away though. might not even be relevant to this discussion of today's great cat dogs.
Was looking long and hard for better track dogs.

David there are more roads in the areas I hunt now than in the past. Yes, roads are a cats best friend once they learn to use them, especially paved roads. Recall years ago hunting with Zip, he was asking my assessment of one of my dogs ability. I stated, he would be a very good cat dog if he can figure out these road runners. Zip said I think you are just be honest, there are lots of dogs with that issue, some owners just never volunteer that information. The areas I get to hunt now days has mostly cats that know what a hound is, if they did not, would not survive very long. Al

[mark]

Al, i use to believe the same way you just explained. Cats that learned to use roads could usually get away from my dogs. I would watch them grub and run around on a road tryind to find a trace of scent to continue on and be losing ground on the cat very fast. I figured out that if i put the dogs back up on the box and drove as fast as was safe for the dogs they would strike it where it left the road and we didnt lose much ground on it. Over time and a different style of dogs they now will make sure that the cat did in fact hit the road and not double back on them and make sure of the direction it went then haul butt looking for where the cat left the road. Now a lot of times the road is a bad thing for the cat as the dogs actually gain on them instead of lose. Do they catch every road runner, NO! But they catch a lot higher percentage of them than they use to. 1.4 miles is the longest i have clocked since i started paying attention to it. I have a video that my kid took of his dogs on a cat that tried the road but i dont know how to post it.

[al baldwin]

Mark, had to think a little, never hauled as you described, however, can recall boxing down the road couple times, after seemed race was over dogs struck & caught a cat, quite a ways form where they lost the track. Wondered if it was the same cat, could not be sure. However it never registered to try what you described. As you are doing so on a regular bases, no doubt you on to something. Most of the good box dogs I owned, would have barked at the slightest scent along that 1.4 mile stretch & I would have released them too soon. When I ask this question never expected to learn so much from it. I had just always wondered how many of those tracks lost out in the brush ( not road loses ) were treed cats that my young pack was not locating. Had nothing to do with running or tree breeding. Hopefully we have discussed that enough. Thanks Al

[mondomuttruner]

I'm a little stumped, where are you when these cats are running the road? Is it a long trek to get around to that road? Maybe if Mark wouldn't be playing with the snow bunnies he would be on the front end of the race...Oh, thats right, no snow...We'll call them playboy bunnies.

On another note, the cats that the dogs didn't locate, by listening to the barking (or I should say, nonbarking) and how they searched an area, I could tell the cat probably treed and walk to within yards of the tree by the dog tracks on the gps. The dogs never left that general area but never located. Usually happened in a tracked up area where the cat ran through several times before. I guess you could say it was a loss by the dogs and a catch for me.

[al baldwin]

I'm a little stumped, where are you when these cats are running the road? Is it a long trek to get around to that road? Maybe if Mark wouldn't be playing with the snow bunnies he would be on the front end of the race...Oh, thats right, no snow...We'll call them playboy bunnies.

On another note, the cats that the dogs didn't locate, by listening to the barking (or I should say, nonbarking) and how they searched an area, I could tell the cat probably treed and walk to within yards of the tree by the dog tracks on the gps. The dogs never left that general area but never located. Usually happened in a tracked up area where the cat ran through several times before. I guess you could say it was a loss by the dogs and a catch for me.

Have been close when cats ran the road, been a ways off. Have over the years located cats for some of those young packs, ( FIRST CLUE THEY WERE NOT GOOD LOCATORS ) as I aged in this steep rough ground tougher to reach the area soon enough, plus there may be numerous large confer to search as dogs were searching a rather large area. How is one to be certain the cat just happen to run enough circles to confuse & just doubled & could be a mile from there, IF COULD NOT SEE A TREED CAT. Realize these were before i owned a garmin. There are times in this area when the best hunter is going to need a locator to find some of those cats. Numerous times dogs can be miles away out of hearing, when this happens. Just my experience.Al

[LarryBeggs]

Al, Think you hit on a good point. The dog needs to match the hunter. If a guy cant get to the tree quick,doesnt have a garmin to help locate,doesnt have the time or resources to put there dogs that might not have as much tree bred into them on enough game to develop there tree. Then he is going to need to lean a little more toward a heavier tree bred dog.I know that there are several guys that have dogs that locate and tree good in the big timber with dogs that lean way more toward a track style type dog.I also think that there are tree bred dogs and running dog bred dogs that have the right track style and tree and locate in one dog.There just not that easy to find. My son and I have two young females right now that I realy like how they run a track.But they arent treeing good enough to make me happy.They wont be two till next month so they have realy only had one full winter hunting.Most dogs in that bloodline are treeing by there second winter. But some took a lot longer than that.I dont know if I have enough patience.I have seen enough tree in them to think that someone that hunted harder than me could put them on enough game that they would probably develop it.My son lost a realy good stay put tree dog this winter.But we would also go to a few more false trees than I liked.So I guess this winter will probably be what sells me on the track style versus tree bred. That is if I dont brake down and borrow the sister to the dog that died from my other son.

[mondomuttruner]

Al, if the dogs made two circles around where they shut up and didn't find a track going out, 95 percent of the time the cat went up. Given time, they would locate but there were times I would walk in to locate. The other 5 percent of the time, they would find where the cat snuck out the back door, usually after I walked in a half mile to get to them. I relied on that dog I lost for much of went on in the brush, I'm probably in for a big surprise without him. Not looking forward to it.

[merlo_105]

Really great topic. I have only delt with a handful of cats that got on the road and the dogs couldnt figure it out. But hunting with others I have seen where cats have really put a whooping on them when hit the road. Having a good road way I have seen cats when pressured hard shoot across the road and when not so pressured hit the road and run it. So with the Gps when I see the dogs are nearing a road I always stop to listen how well there pushing the cat so if I do get there and the dogs have trouble I can do my best to correct them. If theres problems I will box them threw... Either way you look at the tree or style the answer is the same. If you have track dogs and they put a cat up but cant locate thats a lost cat. If you have tree dogs that cant put pressure to make it climb thats a lost cat. Either way no cat. Best advise I ever got was hunt hard and the dogs will learn. Giving there a good caliber of dog. Knowing your pack will answer alot of the did the cat go up the tree or make a lose. Watch your map when the dogs catch and search to locate it will be different then the way they look for a loose at least the dogs I have hunted I could tell a good enough difference where I would go in and help them...