question about line breeding

[JTG]

With a dog used for breeding you have to rely on his back ground and ancesters heavily (blood line) for traits that " Naturally " accure in the littermates . His ability or lack of ability to consistently throw a particular trait or type of dog will depend heavily on the breeding methods used ( line /in breeding to common ancesters, or outcross best to best with no common ancesters )and the "Natural" abilities that are common in his ancesters and there littermates in his back ground.
Litter Average ( common Natural traits )in a dog & his littermates, parent's & littermates, and grand parents and there littermates have a big influence most of the time on a dog's reproducing ability. A dog generally will reproduce the average of what his littermates are.
So a dog used for breeding has to have the "natural " ability to begin with, be from a line bred family that consistently shows that "Natural" ability , while also being a top Natural hound with very little training and or hunting /game exposure, that just Naturaly goes out and get's things done consistently and with style hunting wise.

JTG--->I agree in picking naturals as well, ok so now that you pick the best natural from the whole litter and that’s great for one dog, but how do you duplicate naturals and improve them from one generation to the next? Where do you find another natural to bred to? What if they are naturals, but lack in other areas such as confirmation, size, health and appearance? How would you add more of the good, while at the same time removing the bad?
I also agree the importance of ancestors, but how would you really know their influence both positive and negative, if you did not raise the litters from the past?

What you are wanting to do is in-breeding. For the most part, that is too close. Better results with a Grand-father to Grand-daughter. Uncles and aunt works good too...Half brother and sister is as close as I'll do.. PT
JTG---->How do you know and what would happen if you did breed “too close” and do you know of anyone that bred too close? Would you tell me why you get better results not breeding so close?

[festus]

JTG,
All I can do is tell you my opinion on how I approach the things you mentioned. I am not a top breeder and don't claim to be, I just hunt what I breed and breed what I hunt based on what I need and want for my situation.
I was raised on a dairy farm and we done a lot family/inbreeding with the dairy cows. So that is what I revert back to as far as experience goes. To start with I don't think you can really know what common traits both good and bad you are dealing with until you have raised and trained two or three litters from the family of dogs you are working with. Also, in my opinion, if you are not willing to, or cannot, raise and train whole litters you should not even attempt family /inbreeding. The only way you are going to truly know what you have and are reproducing is if YOU raise and train the litter. Every hound's man will look at and evaluate/grade a dog differently based on his experience and knowledge, even if only slightly.

I don't really look for the best Natural dog in the litter. From my experience the litter average is what you can expect a dog from that litter to reproduce and what you be trying to hold onto and reproduce. Therefore I am looking more at the litter as a whole, and then I make my selection on which dog I want to make a couple test cross's with based on what I am trying to accomplish at the time. If the test cross produces what I am looking to improve on trait wise, then I will use that dog in my breeding program. When I am trying to improve on a trait I always look for the dog in the litter that is strong in that trait. I also always compensate for strengths and weakness in the two dog's I cross.

I have also seen from experience, with the line of dogs I am working with, that the female's seem to contribute more to and consistently pass on brains, ability, desire, and the males have more influence on the physical traits such as build, feet, mouth, ect.

As far as breeding close goes, the best reproducing hound I have ever seen was a female out of a father to daughter cross, and the whole litter were absolute top natural hounds. However the dogs out of that litter that were bred pretty much reproduced what the average of the litter was. Which was above average hound's that were top natural hounds
The closest I personally have bred and had very good results with is 1/2 brother and sister, out of the female from the father/daughter litter. The closest cross you can make is a full brother and sister cross which in my experience is hit or miss. However, Dave Dean and a few other's used these types of crosses for the foundation blood on there dogs.

When you start seriously breeding close you better have a very good solid idea of what you are wanting to accomplish, along with the experience to know what you are looking for or you will probably end up back where you originally started or worse.
Negative physical traits are fairly easy to notice and breed away from, however, mental traits are not so easy in my experience.

This just my opinion.

[JTG]

Festus
I have found Dairy farmers to be very knowledgeable breeders and good honest, hardworking people and thank you for sharing. When you made the father to daughter cross and you produce some of your best hounds, what happen next in regards to breeding from there? You said breeding brother x sister cross is a hit or miss and you mention that you have never bred that close, so my question would be, how do you know?
The ancestors will determine how close a brother x sister cross really is, at least according to geneticists. The offspring could be 25% genetically identical/homozygous and they could be much more and in more cases than not much less. As the breeding gets closer, the more severe the selection must be, so to improve, a good hound is not good enough, they must be excellent in every way, if not close breeding will not improve it.
We are in agreement in looking at the whole litter and you have some very good information.
Jtg

[festus]

Hello JTG,
I agree with you and your belief that hound's must be excellent in every way to use in a close breeding, that is what I am saying. I have made full brother/sister cross's a couple different times and from a couple different crosses, that is where my opinion came from with that type of cross, as well as discussions with a few very successful breeders I have got to know over the years.

To answer your question on how we have ben breeding I will try to explain that as best I can Lol.
With the female, I mentioned in my post above, out of the father/daughter cross, we bred her to a double first cousin on her dad's side , and then bred her again to a son out of the same double first cousin bred to his half sister ( both out of the same mother), which was also a first cousin on the top side to our female from the father/daughter cross.

From the resulting two litter's we made a half brother sister cross.
we then bred a female from this half brother sister cross back to her uncle (a male from the 1/2 bro/sister cross).

From that cross I took a female and bred her to her uncle, who was out of our original father/daughter cross female and a half brother to the same double first cousin male we originally bred our father/daughter female to. Both of these males being out of the same female. This female was also a 1st cousin to the male dog used in the original father/daughter cross. I hope all of this makes sence Lol.

Eight going on nine years ago, we started with a very strict game plan and road map on where we wanted to go and what our idea of a perfect dog was for our situation and way of hunting. We kept every pup from every litter and culled ruthlessly until they were striking, trailing and treeing there own game alone and in a pack situation, most of the dogs were then placed with guy's we hunt with that hunt full time year round. The one's that did not fit into our breeding program were let out to the public usually by word of mouth.

Also the original male and female used in the father daughter cross that started all this was very heavily line/inbred from very proven line's of hounds by a very knowledgeable well respected breeder's of some old blood lines.

Josh

[slowandeasy]

Good to hear from ya Josh!


Take care, Willie

[1bludawg]

JTG and festus, May i throw a hypothetical question at you? If i were to make a father,daughter cross(the father is linebred ) and both parents are excellent dogs but both were late to tree(two yrs old).How would the late treeing trait manifest itself in the pups?Would they tree late or be like the parents littermates who weren't all slow to tree?

[festus]

Hello 1bludawg,
Well you are doubling up on a fault so I would not make the cross. You have to take care of the faults first in my opinion.

[festus]

Hello Willie,
Heck I have not talked to you in a coons age we need to keep in touch a little more regular. I hope every thing is good with you.

[JTG]

Bluedog, to answer your question, some would be better and some would be worse, but no one really knows for sure. If I was to guess it would be about 15% of the litter would not be slow to tree, since in their background there were hounds, that were not slow to tree.
I am guessing these hounds came from a large litter or their parents came from a large litter? I know how to fix it, but it would take three or four generations.
I am with Josh, I would never make this cross, but I can tell you with certainty, there are many so call "top breeders" that breed a whole lot worse and some of those write books and articles about breeding better hounds.

JTG

JTG and festus, May i throw a hypothetical question at you? If i were to make a father,daughter cross(the father is linebred ) and both parents are excellent dogs but both were late to tree(two yrs old).How would the late treeing trait manifest itself in the pups?Would they tree late or be like the parents littermates who weren't all slow to tree?

[1bludawg]

Thanks for your answers.My fear was that it would intensify the late treeing to the point they would tree even later than their parents.

[Diana]

For those of you who are readers, another book I highly recommend about breeding is "The King Ranch Quarter Horses" by Robert Moorman Denhardt. An excellent study of a line/inbreeding program that was extremely successful.

[oldvesper77]

Thought i would follow up on this post, i did breed mother to son, had a healthy litter of 7 pups, kept a male and female. both are 6 months old and hunting well, just starting to keep up with the parents. couldnt be happier with the out come so far. they seem to be almost identical in nose,speed and general behavior, which was what i was hoping for.