cold trail or jump?

[mondomuttruner]

I live for the tough ones. If I treed every cat in 20 min., I think I would quit. Walked a pup that hasn't been out in the woods yet and he went with the dogs for over an hour so I was pretty happy with him. Had to tone the dogs back to me because they were getting close to a river that isn't froze yet and it's pretty nasty. That shell ice on the edge is just where that cat was heading. This is all a mile from the road in flooded black ash and tags....fun,fun
Should make another thread about ice...In Wisc., ice is a cats best friend, especially bare ice. We gots lots of it.

Now if I had some of those westcoast "float on water dogs"...watch out...lol

[LBell]

I'd rather listen to a good race then some dog babble all day on a 3 day old cat fart.

[dwalton]

I live to tree bobcats. I would rather listen to the dogs work out a cold trail for hours then listen to 20 minute jump. I may get 1 or 2 hard races a winter, if it is not because bluffs or road runners it will be caught on the ground. I like to hear a trail job that is moving through the country for several miles with no off barking. The guys out here that catch a lot of cats don't have the long races that are jumped. I have treed bobs in 6 states and have never seen bobcats truly jumped run very long. If the dogs don't push the bobcat it will trot ahead all day, for that is not a jump that is a race that is under dogged. That said I have never hunted the upper midwest or the northeast. Here if you have deep snow that the bobcat runs on top with the dogs falling through most of the time you won't tree it, but that is not a jump race that is a race that dogs are doing their best just trailing behind. If the dogs out here are over running a jump track for a long time, you will have a lot of noise and short looses. That race sounds good but is not a jump race. That cat can stay ahead of the dogs all day. Dewey

[jcathunter]

I live to tree bobcats. I would rather listen to the dogs work out a cold trail for hours then listen to 20 minute jump. I may get 1 or 2 hard races a winter, if it is not because bluffs or road runners it will be caught on the ground. I like to hear a trail job that is moving through the country for several miles with no off barking. The guys out here that catch a lot of cats don't have the long races that are jumped. I have treed bobs in 6 states and have never seen bobcats truly jumped run very long. If the dogs don't push the bobcat it will trot ahead all day, for that is not a jump that is a race that is under dogged. That said I have never hunted the upper midwest or the northeast. Here if you have deep snow that the bobcat runs on top with the dogs falling through most of the time you won't tree it, but that is not a jump race that is a race that dogs are doing their best just trailing behind. If the dogs out here are over running a jump track for a long time, you will have a lot of noise and short looses. That race sounds good but is not a jump race. That cat can stay ahead of the dogs all day. Dewey

I wanna see the dog that will put up 90% of the cats it runs within 20 minutes on the coast.

[dwalton]

Come hunt with me. We are talking about a jump track here. I can put you with a couple of other guys if you want to see there dogs that do it also. Dewey

[jcathunter]

Come hunt with me. We are talking about a jump track here. I can put you with a couple of other guys if you want to see there dogs that do it also. Dewey

I've hunted with guys who put up as many cats as anyone and I've never seen a dog that will jump the cat and put him up within 20 minutes 90% of the time. You hunt more days than most so, between kill season and pursuit season(sept-feb=roughly 180 days), according to your posts, you must be getting after 150plus cats a year (average 1-2 tracks a day, catch 3 regularly) Give or take, of course, for weather conditions. Rounding down to 100 cats, that means with your "1 or 2 tough races a year" you are jumping 98 cats and having them in a tree or caught on the ground within 20 minutes of jumping them and then you have 2 tough races??? Do your dogs ever get beat? How many dogs are you putting on each cat?

[dwalton]

In the last 7 years I have treed from 41 to 64 bobcats in a 90 day season plus a week that California opened before us here. I trail some that I never get jumped like everyone. Last year I had one race that was jumped that did not end at a hole , treed or caught on the ground during the kill season. The year before 3 cats that did not end with a caught bobcat that were jumped with 49 treed. I hunt from the desert to the coast but very little on the coast during kill season because of the quality of the cat hides. I train there during training season. I hunt during kill season where most people don't hunt, big rough country, rocks and no roads to find bigger and easier cats. I end up treeing a few in wilderness areas every year. I have a friend that lives on the coast that trees far more cats that I do believes as I do that most races don't last that long jumped. I don't hunt nights, the bobs are easier to tree if jumped out of a bed verses harder to tree at night with a empty stomach. I like to cold trail also not hit hot tracks as some do at night. I keep 12 to 14 dogs and pups most of the time and take 8 to 10 most days hunting. A pack of good dogs that don't off bark and have been bred and trained to run a cold track will get the cat treed quicker. I don't run anything but bobcats not even a lion. There is a difference in a pack of dogs that have been raised on one thing, they can become experts. When I hunted California the training season was all year which give me far more days to hunt. I have never kept track of how many cats I struck, trailed, jumped and treed. Just what I caught. I plan to this year. My dogs were layer up for 7 months this year I have just started to hunt them. Been out twice this week struck 2 and treed two with soft dogs. I will let you know how the year works out. As with everything people are all over with their knowledge, experience and time commitment. Those that want to, those figure how to, those that thing they know and those that just do.There are a lot of different levels of anything one does depending on where you live and your commitment. Those that know it can't happen it will never happen for them. What I write is not about my ego or sailing dogs, I have sold none this year, it's about what can be done and does happen. As said by some on here there is a lot of smoke being blow it is up to each one of us to find out what is true. I have invited people to come hunt and see. If you are comfortable at what you do and know great you are right where you should be. As Dave said of Tom in his book [Bobcats are not hard to catch with the right dog.] I would like to add [ it also takes the right hunter to train and make the time commitment].In several places large numbers of bobcat with most jumped that are caught by a few master bobcat hunters with very well trained and bred bobcat dogs. Come hunt and see what my dogs do. There are far better hunters and dogs out there than me and mine. Dewey

[cobalt]

Sounds like the definition of "jumped race" is being manipulated. Pretty soon a "jumped race" will mean 1 jump ahead of the dogs and cold trailing will mean everything else. If this is the case, then I guess the questions of importance becomes how high a percentage of cold tracks end up in trees. No matter what, cold trail and jump cannot exist without each other. There is no "or". At least at my house, anyway. And my definition of jump is way tougher on the dog. If the dogs reach a point in the track where the cat knows it is being pursued and is traveling in response to this knowledge, technically I think the cat is "jumped".

[dwalton]

Cobalt: I think you are right as anything with hound hunting or any spoken words it means different thing to different people. For me a jump is only when a bobcat it jumped out of it's bed or where it is layed up and makes a run from the hounds. Just as cold trailing is a track that can be many hours old or minutes old. For some cold trailing is, dogs pounding out a track from track to track, while some dogs get ahold of it at a run the smell and are gone on the same track. A cat can be feeding, hours old or frozen in the snow and the dogs are moving it fast, that is trailing no matter if there is a lot noise, very little noise, standing on their heads or moving through the country fast that is trailing to me. A jump bobcat is one that is made to run ahead of the dogs, jumped and running. Now if the dogs can't tree it because of lack of pressure, loses, roads, bluffs inability to run a track it will turn back into a trail job. I maintain that that is what happens to most of the people that run bobcats with coon, bear,lion or combination dogs. I will give a example. When I started back hunting after raising my kids I got two dogs from a friend that was top cat hunter. One 20 months old one 7 months old. I caught 5 bobs the rest of that season. The next year I caught 16 but jumped 25 that I did not catch. I took the youngest one put a Leopard Cur pup and a 8 month 5/8 running dog in there. That year I treed 40 bobs. I raised a litter out of the running dog and add one of those dogs and started catching bobs on the ground. Most of my dogs are pups or grand pups out of the running dog and the catch is only limited to how hard I want to hunt. The point is that I put a pack together, trained them the way I like to hunt[ cold trail and catch bobs]. Each to their own hunt what you like, where you like, how you like. I guarantee that what anyones thinks about hunting is colored by their experience. If you have not seen it done it can't be done. There are a lot of old hunters out there that I feel know a lot about hunting that have it the way it is for them. Take the discussions we have had about bobcat numbers, some find them year after year in big numbers sone don't. I even heard the statement made by one of the top cats hunters made that he did not realize he was missing bobcat strikes until he got a dog that didn't miss them.[ Finding no cats to treeing over 100 in 7 months.] Yes the right things and wrong things in this world is because of lack of the ability of communicating and each one of us with our opinion. Which we believe is right or wrong. It is just an opinion as we see it based on what we have done and know. Dewey

[jcathunter]

Sounds like the definition of "jumped race" is being manipulated. Pretty soon a "jumped race" will mean 1 jump ahead of the dogs and cold trailing will mean everything else. If this is the case, then I guess the questions of importance becomes how high a percentage of cold tracks end up in trees. No matter what, cold trail and jump cannot exist without each other. There is no "or". At least at my house, anyway. And my definition of jump is way tougher on the dog. If the dogs reach a point in the track where the cat knows it is being pursued and is traveling in response to this knowledge, technically I think the cat is "jumped".

I agree 100%, Cobalt. Once a cat knows dogs are after it and the dogs have reached the point where the cat was laid up, it is considered a jumped race.
Dewey, I find it comical how you talk as though people have just never witnessed such greatness as is seen in yourself and your dogs. You talk condescendingly and say that people just don't know what a great dog and handler can do. Keep in mind that many folks on here have hunted with some great men and are smart enough to know that dogs get beat. If a man says they don't, I'm calling BS. Now, if you're saying that dogs that jump the cat and then get behind or boogared up are now, "trailing" again and that isn't considered a jump then I can understand how you catch all your jumped cats. Regardless of how good a dog is, weather happens, conditions happen, cats get lucky or make smart choices and dogs get beat. I've spent a lot of days in the woods with people and dogs that are/were quiet good at what they do and I have yet to see a dog that is 98%. (from your lower than 100 numbers your success rate has to be pushing 99%) Even dumping a half million dogs like you do, stuff still happens and dogs, again, get beat. A good friend suggested I keep a log book one kill season and I did. I ended up catching 45 of 50 jumped tracks with two dogs and a pup. To me, and my friend, that was considered to be a great catch percentage. He was also a man that put up a cat or two

[cobalt]

I will not dispute that there is a better probability that straight cat dogs will do better on average than combo dogs (all things considered equal), just as a good, straight desert hunted cat dog is a better bet in the desert or wide open country than a good coast hunted dog. There are always exceptions, but I am talking averages. I am also referring to a dog, not dogs (pack).
I have to think that when you re-entered the sport, isn't it possible that it might not have been the dogs that were getting better, but rather you as a trainer? And really, it is the diversity of traits in a pack that makes the difference? Right?

[dwalton]

That is a great catch on bobs. The bobs I don't tree are the ones that the dogs lose in roads or bluff which only a few a year. If the cat gets a break and stays a head of the dogs all day that is the missed jump for me. There are a lot of great hunters out there that do catch far more than I do. Most have enough smarts to keep to themselves. I don't have dogs all that good, holes in almost everyone, the point is what can be done bobcat hunting. Bobcat hunting can be made easy with the right dogs and hunter. Heres one that most won't believe I have 1,2 and 3 year old dogs that have never been shocked on off game, some have never ran off game and have been turned out on the strike since pups. How can that be when everyone knows you have to break a dog from trash? You have hunted with some top hunters and done well your self but call BS on what can be done. Whats that all about? There are different levels of everything my point is what can be done to those trying to learn not to those that know already. I hear from some of those top bobcat hunters that there are few bobs yet some people catch one or several almost every time out. What's the difference? It is amazing how many judge or make wrong what I say or tell about my dogs that have never hunted with me. I know two guys that do far better that I do that live on the coast. For me the proof is the cat hides for sale at the end of the year ,year after year. Everybody knows that running dogs can't cold trail, one of the best statements made by a top cat hunter was about my dogs was you can not catch that many cats with dogs that don't cold trail after seeing my fur shed. Another old time hunter guide older than myself call and came and hunted with me. He had never been around running dogs. After the hunt his comment was you have three types of dogs you hunt,I believe you could take any dog and catch a cat, these dogs are so calm and easy handling and I have never seen 9 dogs at a tree you walk in look at the cat call your dogs and they follow you out. I want to try a pup. Which he really likes. The point is that a lot can be done with dogs that yes even some very good old hunters don't do. You are a guy that knows what can be done with dogs but want to argue with me and call BS. Is that about me ,no I don't think so maybe it is about you. Come hunt with me, we will hunt my dogs one day yours the next then you will have first hand knowledge as to the way it is. Cobalt Yes with age I became a better trainer. I raised mules those years that I did not hunt hounds and learn a lot about training animals the way they should be trained[ by positive training not trying to make a animal conform to me and my beliefs.] AS far as a pack every dog I have has caught their own cat at maturity. No matter how good a dog is other dogs are better at certain things, putting a pack together that excels is what I love to do. AS a baseball team if you played with all pitchers you will win a lot less games then with a balance team. Everyone has a job that they are good at and each one knows that. As a individuals they make the team. I love to hear a pack fly threw the country on a cold track, hear the roar of the jump, hear dogs locate or see dogs cut a circle them come in and locate. Each have a job that adds to what I expect a pack of cat dogs to do. I feel it takes far more knowledge to put a balance pack together of 8 or 10 dogs than it does to hunt two dogs. Almost everyone knows that with 8 or 10 dogs out you will have more trash races and more screw ups thus lose more cats. Not so. Again each to their own, hunt how and what you like and allow each of us our opinion as to what we see and believe. We all could learn something that we don,t know. Come hunt I would love to see some good blue ticks work. Dewey

[jcathunter]

Well, someday, maybe I'll get to see a good dog work. I'm going to be over in your neck of the woods in January to hunt with a buddy of mine and I may take you up on your offer. I know he's going to as you've offered the same to him. From what you are saying, it really makes me wonder how my two dogs could have done in better hands. I mean, heck, with another 6-8 dogs in there they may have done alright and especially if I wouldn't have ran bear with them in Ca. every fall. Maybe I could teach my dogs to handle, someday. I do have one question. If all of your dogs have caught cats solo, none run trash, and you dump all of your dogs at the strike, how do you count the times that one dog trees the cat and the other 9 aren't under the tree? Kind of confusing. The only explanation I could think of is that you split raced and caught two cats which, personally, I don't like. Sure, its two trees, but I want my dogs to stay together. Just personal preference. I did try a running dog once. The first year, he would split off and run every deer, elk, or coyote in the country while the old dog treed the cats alone. Then, after some trash breaking, he turned into a wheel of a track dog and would run a cat as pretty as any dog but he couldn't locate a bear sitting on his head and would leave the tree any time the old dog(s) put a cat up. I believe he came from some of that "trash free" bloodline, too. Sure, he had his place in a pack and really contributed to a race but he was not a dog I wanted because, at three years old, I want a dog that trees. Some say that it just takes longer, etc and that is fine for other folks but not for me. I also remember you really talking that dog up to a friend of mine and telling him that I just didn't know what I had. I believe he corrected you and let you know that I knew exactly what I had and so did he because he'd hunted with the dog.
Back to the high percentage thing. Im trying to get this figured out. Now, you are saying that you have "the" missed jump as if it only happens once and you say that you lose dogs in a road or bluffs a "few" times a year. Is is a few and a missed jump or multiple missed jumps or "one or two tough races a year"? I've seen Elmer, Kevin, Curt, etc all get beat more than one or two times a year and I think an awful lot of those guys and their ability to catch cats.

[dwalton]

I have had split races, one time I set in one spot and listen to three trees at once. I loved it. A lot of times twos trees. I think I know the dog your are talking about . It just goes to show each to their own. If it is the dog I am thinking about when I got it back it just didn't seem to have the right up bring. Some of the basic was never taught him as I saw it. Will a little work he turned out well after over coming his up bringing. The owner now loves him and he gets to sleep in the house in-between catching game and trees well. Just to show what can be done in the right hands with a good blooded dog. I have said on here many times each to their own there are many breeds and combinations because we all like something different. I think no less of a person as to what he likes and hunts and will give him credit where credits due. It may be a little much to expect the same from everyone. Have a good day. Dewey

[merlo_105]

This conversation is funny. Dewey protects his dogs and his name cause some people are close minded. All because someone they know said it is this way and not that way and they never seen for them self's. The name of the game is to put game in the tree that's what everyone strives for in the long run. Go hunt with Dewey he invited you they might not be the style of dog for you but if he puts cats up then there aint much negative to say about his dogs. If the dogs get a good jump on a cat it should be over for the cat simple as that if your dogs aren't putting pressure to it and or making loses then you probably need to sit down and weed some dogs out and add a new dog. Some people make cat hunting harder then it really is for the fact that they know everything. I don't know anything and I'll bet I have the funniest looking bunch of dogs on here but they know how to get it done on a easy cat lol... Go hunt with him have a open mind you'll come out ahead in the end...