cold trail or jump?

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jcathunter
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by jcathunter »

Dewey, its funny you say that about the upbringing. I don't know how many times I've heard the same story. Someone has issues with one of your dogs and you claim upbringing. :lol: Of course, a master handler can turn them right around and, of course, then they are worth more money. :lol: Like I said, I'll be over in January to go out with Curt so come on up and show your stuff. :wink:
Merlo, you said, "If the dogs get a good jump on a cat it should be over for the cat simple as that if your dogs aren't putting pressure to it and or making loses then you probably need to sit down and weed some dogs out and add a new dog" so I would have to assume that you catch every cat, too?? Maybe you are right then and I do need to get with a real cat hunter sometime so I can see these dogs that bat a thousand. Maybe, the guys that have shown me what a good dog is, didn't have as good of dogs as everyone thought they did. :roll: Maybe they made cat hunting "harder than it really is".
I'm not saying that Dewey doesn't catch cats and quite a few of them because I know that he does. I know we prefer different styles of dogs and hunt much differently. I'm just not convinced that he is putting up 98-99% of his jumped cats let alone doing it within 20 minutes of the jump on every single one, other than the 1 or 2 "tough races" per year. In one thread, he talks about averaging 1-2 tracks per day and catching up to 4 cats a day and catching 3 often yet he catches 41-64 per year in a 90 day plus a week season. I realize that weather cuts a guys days down but I'm getting lost in this math somewhere especially for someone who talks about how great their dogs cold trail.
I'm also not claiming to even have a dog worth a darn on bobcat. Never once have I said anything about the dogs I'm hunting now nor compared them to anyones. In fact, the dogs I have now are a bit more geared towards bear but they will catch some bobcats. I have, however, hunted with guys who catch comparable numbers of cats as Dewey does but they also get beat so, either they hunt a lot more than Dewey or, for some reason, Dewey is not jumping as many cats as those guys.
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by scrubrunner »

Trailing is when dogs are smelling scent left behind on the ground,bushes ect. They can follow a cat around all day smelling scent left behind still hanging in the air but a jumped cat the dogs are smelling the cat not scent left behind.
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by cobalt »

Seriously?
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by dwalton »

scrbrunner: a good way to describe the difference. Thinking back I have seen a lot of jumped bear races where the dogs cross the road 20 or 30 yards down wind of the place that I saw the bear cross. With bobcat I have seen it some but not as far off. Out here as you probably have there we have a lot of brush, I think the dogs run the scent funnel closer than in open country. I can remember running fox with my uncle as a kid seeing the fox hit the road with dogs hitting the road in a 20 foot spread all running for the lead. It seems to me that running dog people understand the difference in a jump and in a good track better. Just my opinion Dewey
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cold trail or jump?

Post by johnadamhunter »

Scrubrunner,
X2!!
mark
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by mark »

Count me in
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by jcathunter »

So you guys only say the cat is jumped if the dogs are hot on it??? For me, the cat is jumped as soon as the dogs get to where the cat was laid up and they have him up and moving. If the cat is way out in front of them or the dogs are "following the cat around", I call that being in the process of getting beat. If they don't catch up to him, they got beat. I used to have lots of explanations for everything and can still come up with some dandies :lol: but a good friend of mine once put it into perspective for me after I gave him some long excuse. He looked me in the eye, smiled and said, "so what you're sayin is....bottom line, no fur!!" :wink:
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by Bones2 »

Im just new to bobcat huntin, but maybe dewy has some training/handling techniques that we all need to learn.????
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by jcathunter »

I know its not a cat but here is an example of what I consider to be jumped. In this video, the bear is clearly up and moving but the dogs are still way behind. To me, once the animal knows he's being chased and is responding to it, he's jumped. You can even hear me say, "they're gonna have to get closer to him than that" in the video. https://vimeo.com/108073182
mark
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by mark »

I understand what you are saying jcat i used to hunt some dogs like that. I think you even ended up with one or two of that line. I caught cats with those dogs and was happy (at the time)
But i was hearing rumors of unbelievable catch numbers and things that dogs were doing outside of the circle i knew. I started digging into it and checking stories out and went and saw with my own eyes. The point im at now in dogs is still far from perfect but it is close enuff that i can believe a high 90's percent catch ratio. Lets just say the dogs i use to hunt wouldnt make a tick on the dogs i hunt now's ass. And i too am entitled to an opinion lol

That being said, i truly believe there are days when conditions wont allow a dog to get its head up and run a cat hard enough for a catch of any kind
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by jcathunter »

Mark, I did end up with a couple of those dogs, and, like you said, they caught cats and I did like them a lot but, then, I was fortunate enough to hunt with Elmer and see his caliber of dogs.(the dogs were old when I got them so I cannot comment as to what they did in their prime) Back then, I was also hearing of Leons success and it was humbling. After a few years, Elmer suggested that I keep a tally and, that year, is the year I caught 90% of the jumped cats and, although it was the only year I kept track, I know it was my best year for catch ratio and I also know other guys did better than me. I guess if a guy only hunted on days with great conditions it could sway the percentage quite a bit but guys like you, Curt, Dewey, etc all hunt enough that I have no doubts conditions play a role in your catch percentages. Like you said, there are days that its just tough and that is where I'm having trouble believing 98-99%. I don't know how many times I've had cats run down to the lower reprod where the snow is dripping and ruin a race or had a sudden shower come in and rain on a good track. I count those times as getting beat. When a guy puts after as many cats as you guys do, stuff happens and, although no fault of the dog or owner, the cat gets away. "Bottom line, no fur" I have absolutely no doubt that Dewey catches a lot of cats. Although it sounds like we hunt much differently and have different preferences, the numbers don't lie. He gets it done. I just have a hard time believing that dogs only have one or two tough races a year especially with the weather in the northwest. Now days, a multiple catch day is usually a skunk and a porcupine (ask Curt ahahha), but in the past, I've had many 2-4 cat days that were only negated by the next time I was left looking dumb and scratching my head. Whether its the weather, a huge rock wall, or just one of those off days, dogs get beat and, when a guy hunts enough to put after 50+ cats in 90 days in the NW, there will be times the dogs get beat, one way or another.
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by merlo_105 »

No Jcathunter I don't catch 100% jumped tracks but if I was only catching a few I would go with different dogs. People make cat hunting harder cause they just do they have beliefs that might not be accurate or opinions that aren't accurate.
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by slowandeasy »

scrubrunner wrote:Trailing is when dogs are smelling scent left behind on the ground,bushes ect. They can follow a cat around all day smelling scent left behind still hanging in the air but a jumped cat the dogs are smelling the cat not scent left behind.




Scruby,


Funny the cream always comes to the top!!! Question I have is why the fug bother explaining to them. Three quarters of them on here already know it all, and that's why they are so successful!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: I'll be quiet now Mark :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



Take care, Willie
Cry to the heavens and let slip the dogs of war. For they must feed on the bones of tyranny. In order for men to have freedom and liberty
jcathunter
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by jcathunter »

merlo_105 wrote:No Jcathunter I don't catch 100% jumped tracks but if I was only catching a few I would go with different dogs. People make cat hunting harder cause they just do they have beliefs that might not be accurate or opinions that aren't accurate.

What do you consider as, "only a few" and, at what point, would you "go with different dogs"? I'm asking because your post seems to imply that someone is saying 98-99% success is not realistic because they're catching fewer cats. I've shared my personal best and, from the sounds of it, its not too far off of the numbers I'm hearing from others and I was perfectly happy with the dogs I was using, especially considering that they weren't straight cat dogs and I used them to catch 30-40 bears a year. The guys that I have spent a considerable amount of time in the woods with are better cat hunters than I am and always will be and their numbers are, also right in there with the higher numbers I'm hearing but they get beat more than 1% of the time. I don't think anyone would dispute that Elmer was one hell of a dog trainer and a true cat man but his dogs did get beat. The other friend I have talked about, Curt, catches numbers comparable to anything I've heard on here or otherwise. In fact, some have even talked trash about him for catching too many cats in areas they hunt. lol He will also be the first to tell you that his dogs don't catch them all.
Now, back to the trailing vs jumped thing. Referencing my video, was that bear jumped when he was running down that road to you guys? He was a dog smart bear that would move as soon as he heard dogs. He was laid up in the timber patch at the top of the knob. Sure, him leaving as soon as he heard the dogs gave him a 3-400yd headstart but, to me, that bear was jumped as soon as the dogs hit that timber patch even though they were far behind at that point because they had reached the point the bear felt he was being pursued and moved. If that is not considered jumped, I can easily see how some would expect a perfect catch ratio because, in poor conditions, a cat could maintain that lead and get away without some considering it to be jumped. As an example, a friend of mine posted a video on facebook the other day of Curts dogs on a cat at the coast. The cat started above the snow line and headed downhill into the reprod where it was raining hard on top of a couple inches of snow. After 6 hours of "following the cat around all day" they caught it. If the cat had gotten away, which it would have with any dog I've ever owned, does that count as being jumped because, by the definition I'm seeing, it would not.
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Re: cold trail or jump?

Post by jcathunter »

To add to that, if a cat is not considered jumped until the dogs have caught up to it and are in a foot race with it, I can understand the very high percentages because most of the work is done at that point. Under that premise, which also brings us back to the original question, a fast hot nosed dog would turn in much higher percentages than a well rounded cat dog because the well rounded cat dog would encounter more obstacles in catching up to the cat for the foot race and would have, likely, also covered a lot more ground getting to the cat than a dog that only takes hot tracks and runs them down. I'm in no way saying that anyones dogs are hot nosed or can't cold trail. In fact, the dog I had out of Deweys stuff, would move a cat as pretty as any. I'm simply saying that, under those standards, the jumped track to catch ratio would be much higher on a less than complete dog. To give an analogy, lets think about off road motorcycle racing. If a rider says that they get a podium every time they get the holeshot, that is impressive but not if they only get the holeshot 1 out of 5 attempts. Now, you take another guy who only gets a podium half of the times he gets the holeshot but gets the holeshot 4 out of 5 attempts. One has a much higher percentage but the other is clearly a more consistent face on the podium.
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