rivers and shelf ice

[Liz ODell]

Yep Merlo, apparently I am not possessed of much ego either. My hunts are a more personal thing and I'm surely not a person that needs to tell others about what I have been catching to make it feel complete (I am not a competitive person either).

Yes, obviously no one knows what is going to happen when you turn a dog loose, anything could, but I do try to prevent preventable unfortunate circumstances (I think that is otherwise known as common sense?), my dogs swim just fine, they swim rivers and creeks in the big woods and they hunt a lot of flooded ground on the duck clubs.
Could they survive a big freezing river or deep creek with shelf ice (or falling through a frozen lake) that doesn't afford them a way to get out?
Probably not.
Could I choose to pass that track and keep catching cats/game with the same dogs in other places for years to come?
Probably, but that's hard to do with a pack of dead dogs and I would personally feel like I had let them down by not being able to come to their rescue in time and that would bother me for the rest of my life.
Would I turn loose on a bear or lion in country as described (I don't pig hunt), yes I would and I have, I know my dogs and that they can handle that situation just fine, the same as I know they would die in a freezing river that they can't get out of.
I like catching game the same as everyone and a day out without catching something is surely disappointing but at the same time a day coming home a dog short is far more bitter, been there done that...
I also breed/raise my own dogs, I rarely buy them, if I do it's as a baby pup, so a loss is perhaps a bit more devastating to me in that aspect.

[bearsnva]

KIARA STAR MOUNTAIN-SIZLING 4 YEARS
ONCHA URSUS-NABEK-BLUFF CREEK 4 YEARS
EZMA URSUS-NABEK-BLUFF CREEK 4 YEARS
SARGE STAR MOUNTAIN-SIZLING 1 YEAR
and TONY A VETERAN LOCAL DOG,12 YEARS OLD

Boar tried to cross a flooded icy river and died as we were watching and the dogs jumped in stuck in the ice, we broke the ice and saved them from the ice but hypotermia killed them all in our laps.
This happened two days ago and should give everyone something to think about. The choice is a personal one that every hunter makes, unfortunately if the wrong decision is made the dogs pay the most. I know we all know bad things can happen when we turn dogs loose but let's all do our best to use the best judgment possible. When and if ego enters the picture things are more apt to go downhill. This is not directed at any person or post previously entered so don't even try to go there. Good hunting to all and do what you feel is best for your dogs.

[mike martell]

To each his own...

To all my Canadian friends and many in the lower 48 States that deal with the certain conditions as mention seem pretty minimal compared to the wolf on a daily basis and making a living with hounds raised in the house...Do you use common sense and quit hunting for the love of your hounds or go right ahead the best way you know how?

[Liz ODell]

Yes, I'd rather worry about anything but wolves, not sure I could ever live somewhere that has a big population of them.
That said, people turn loose lot's of dogs in country where there are wolves (people I even personally know) but I don't know anyone that *knowingly* would turn loose in a current wolf active area.
Meaning they have cussed many a fresh wolf track and driven on past that cat/bear track because of it.

But yes, key point, to each their own.

[Liz ODell]

bearsnva...sorry to hear of your loss

[bearsnva]

Liz,
Thank you for your concern but these were not my dogs. I did not try by any means to be misleading. The dogs were owned by a person that frequents another top dog site and does not even live in the U.S. I made the post to merely give an example of how things can go tragically wrong in the blink of an eye. To loose one dog is terrible but this man lost his entire pack of dogs right before his eyes.

[Hounder-]

My gang watches the ice here in northern Wisconsin. Especially this year knowing that rain/snow came then all melted, making the rivers high and fast, and then snow came again before a hard freeze. Meaning insulated thin ice and fast flowing rivers. It ain't nothing to do with a dogs swimming ability when conditions are like that. Its break through and you are sucked under. Am I still hunting? Well ya, but we watch the "bad" chunks and adapt or pull accordingly. I do try and take my foolish pride out of the decision too. Is it truly worth it to continue the chase? Am I just trying to prove something? But I'm pretty flawed

Its all apart of being a houndsmen in my eyes. You understand all the conditions that go into a hunt and make your hunt plan based on that Hence why I love hound hunting, the most involved hunting there is that requires the most woodsman knowledge, but thats a tangent and I'm preaching to the choir, haha.

Anywho, I don't think there is a right answer to pull or not to pull. Its up to the hunter, just thought I'd share what we do.

[merlo_105]

All I know is it don't make you any less of a man or a houndsmen to pass on a track cause of a given situation. My dog's are all raised in the house so maybe I'm a little more attached then some or maybe it's cause I have nothing to prove. My dog's catch great if they don't well that suck's but that's hunting. For the old timer's who feel well your a pussy if you keep your hounds from running that track, well wonder why the sport has such a bad name.

[archermn]

I was a kid 9-10 years old coon hunting with my dad and a guy that worked for my dad at the time. It's probably 1st part of November in mn a probably a little chilly. We cut my dad's walker down the edge of a river. Corn and a tree line on one side and timber on the other. We only made it a 100yrds or so and coin opened up chop,chop splash. He got to the other side and treed shortly after. So my dad's employee loved to show off or look tuff,whatever you want to call it. He takes off to the the river bank grabs a log and starts huck finning his way across. This wasent the mighty Mississippi but wasent a creek eather. So he gets across walks a ways and just starts cussing out the dog, he's just bitching a pure hissy over there. My dad yells over to him, what the hell you yelling about! Finally he walks out to the river bank and yells, the $$$$ing dogs on your side! Me and dad just busted out laughing. When my dad could finally keep a strait face he yells over to um, we'll get back over here and will go shoot the coon. We followed the river down but the dog was defiantly on the other side. So now the guys soaking wet and confused as can be. We get strait across from the dog and can see the coon and down on our side of the river bank is a 2 person row boat just sitting there. You should have seen this guy scratch his head lol. Dad and him rowed across shot the coon and rowed back. Never had to get there feet wet. We called the guy Rambo for as long as he worked for us. Was it dangerous,yes stupid, maybe a little but made for a story I've rememberd for 20 some years and still laugh about that night. Wish my dad was still around, I'd remind him of that night tommorow

[david]

That is when "roe vs wade" had a whole different meaning. Mike M., I thought of that line and your story several times today, and laughed each time. Got some strange looks from people. Thought maybe I should take out my phone and pretend to be talking to a funny person. But it was too late, they already knew I was looney. Your story Archerman is equally funny and the line fits your story perfectly.

[david]

I just learned from merlo that the sport of bobcat hunting has a bad name. I am very sorry to hear that. I am not sure how I missed that information. Maybe I'm running with the wrong crowd. I always thought it had a good name. It is a rude awakening.

Just for the record, I was not out there killing dogs with carelessness. My dogs were not dying but having the time of their happy long lives. As long as I hunted MN I was nearly always within a stones throw of water (liquid and/or solid). But I never ever had a dog drown. And as often as not there were fresh wolf tracks encountered at some point during the hunt, if not all day long. And I never lost a dog to wolves. Was not trying to be tough. Just trying to hunt bobcats. I did not know any other way.

Every year people die In MN going through the ice. Ice is always potentially dangerous. I myself have gone through the ice when the ice all day long was two feet thick. and by some miracle am alive to tell about it. It is just a part of life for the winter outdoorsman. I still love to ice fish and would love hunting the north woods if I could. People still drive their trucks out on the ice and move small ice fishing mansions out there. They all know that someone is going to die this year doing that. They don't do it to prove they are tough. They do it because they like to hunt and fish. It is just outdoor life. No credit to me or anyone else that does it. I don't really get all the references in this discussion to ego or trying to prove something or trying to prove you are not trying to prove something.

If you hate ice, don't be an ice fisherman, because it will be hard to enjoy yourself out there. You can catch fish all summer and have a ball.

[red river hounds]

Three years ago in march we had a heavy snow in march so my brother and other hunting buddies took my hounds and went huntin. The rivers had opened up but the night before Temps had dropped into the teens. I told the guys to make sure the river was open and they said it was. I worked till early afternoon and then joined the hunt. They had just brought the hounds into the river bottom and jumped a yote. It somehow crossed the river but the one hound who was on him tried but fell through out in the middle. That part of the river had formed about 1/2 an inch of ice the night before. The river was about 30 yards wide and my brother couldn't get too him, too deep and too much current. I started in from the other side and was just about there when I heard my brother holler f***. I got to the river bank and nothing. The hound was in for about 20 minutes and he got too cold and just slid in and went under. When he went down he started kicking and my brother could see him through the ice. He kicked his way closer too my brothers side. I seen him run down river aways wondering what he was doing when he jumped in broke the ice, grabbed a willow branch and started wading into the river breaking ice with his elbow. He reached under the ice and pulled out the hound and brought him too shore. On shore the hound laid there motionless for a bit. My brother started pumping his chest and doing what he could and he started breathing slowly. By then some of the other guys got there, they carried out the hound and we got him too the vet in bout 5 minutes. There they put heat pads and warm bottles around him too get his temp up. As he warmed up he started doing better and better. The best part is we got fresh snow tonight and we'll be hunting that hound in the morning, he never missed a beat after that day. Don't think we'll ever get that lucky again, like some guys mentioned you do your best to try to keep em safe but ya still gotta let em hunt, that hounds been beat up by bears and almost run over hunting but keeps on rolling. Just an experience I had with rivers and ice and thought I'd share the story.

[david]

That is an amazing story on so many levels. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

[merlo_105]

David, All I'm saying is having a careless attitude does the sport of Hound hunting no Justice. Just cause you haven't or Didn't lose a Dog to a Wolf or a River don't mean the guy behind you wont or hasn't. If a dog misses two tracks a year cause of a unsafe situation then so be it, Ain't going to hurt that dog one bit. It's at the dog owner's discretion no one else's and one shouldn't be judged on how he hunts his dog's. If the guy who started this topic feel's he made the right choice then good if he want's to go back and turn loose then good. There is no wrong or right.

[Hounder-]

Well, discussions are always fun. I think the point is proven from the stories (both saved dogs and lost dogs) that there is a risk and its up to the hunter to make the call. No "side" will be right.

I agree with merlo's sentiment that its whatever the hunter is comfortable with and go from there. In the end we are talking about a small small percentage of hunts no matter what way you decide. A guy is a houndsmen in my eyes no matter what he decides.

David, all I was saying is pride can blind me sometimes, and have me make a decision I wouldn't otherwise. I was just speaking from my experiences to help give the original poster my thought process behind my call to pull or not. I was not trying to call out anyone, sorry if I made it appear that way.

I at first found it funny that such a simple question sparked such a big discussion, but when I think about it, it again speaks to the complexities of hound hunting. It's a subject that can be talked about for days, either behind a keyboard or on a barstool!