Opinions

[mondomuttruner]

if it does trash on you and you correct it, it doesnt take 2-4 days or a week to get it on good game again. Many times with a good population the pup is on a good race within an hour.

I believe this is the biggest key to trashbreaking when it happens while trailing any game animal of choice. Problem is, theres only a handful of areas with that good of a population to do that. The sooner you get them back on "good" game, the better.

[coastrangecathunting]

I think you give yourself way to much credit dewey. Making a cat dog isn't as hard as you make it sound. With the right dog almost anyone can have a catdog. If a guy has common sense and a natural cat minded dog and hunts his ass off , he will make a cat dog. The biggest problem I see is when people try to make a cat dog out of a dog that doesn't and never will have the ability to become a cat dog. Not saying they won't catch some cats but not consistently with style and ease. There are dogs out there that train themselves if u just hunt them hard and put them on good game. Jmo

[South Texan]

Very good point Mark! I totally agree with you! As I'm training a pup it is just as vital showing a pup what they can run and catch as breaking them off trash. If your not catching any positive game it's kinda hard for a pup to figure out what they are suppose to run.

I've been thinking a lot about the hyper dogs (hyper, high energy, high strung, lots of go, whatever you want to call it). No doubt when training as a young dog you better keep a close eye on them. I have had a few through the years that I would call hyper that made outstanding dogs. Now I don't mean running around babbling or overrunning the track messing things up. His energy was applied to one thing only and that was finding that cat. Last one I had like this was about 6 years ago he went into old Mexico. He was a ball of fire but smart as a whip and loved a cat. I remember watching him look for a cat out of a lose. When the other dogs might give up on a bad lose not Matt. He was determined he was gonna find that cat and most times he did. But just saying if you can get all that energy of that hyper dog pointed in the right direction it can be awesome.

Now I also realize there are some high strung, hyper idiots out there too. Dogs running around barking out of place and don't have nothing. Nearly impossible to catch a cat with a dog like this around. A dogs bark better mean something! To you and the other dogs. When a dog opens and other dogs don't pay any attention to him, you better go to keeping a close eye on that dog.

It could be the different styles of hunting we do in different parts of the country. Most all cat hunters here past and present have always road hunted their dogs. Now you take a hunt when the game isn't moving hunting 5 or 6 hours without a bark. I have seen times when them calm dogs would give up and not want to hunt. Maybe they knew the game wasn't moving but your high energy dog had the attitude "I don't care if they are moving or not, I'm gonna invent one"! And sooner or latter he would.

Road hunting vs rigging. Don't take much out of a dog rigging for 5 or 6 hours I wouldn't think. So the calmer, lower energy type dog would be fine for this. I also have some of the calmer dogs in my pack but when they get a good sniff of cat scent they can come to life. But....dogs are a lot like people. We are all different. Some of us are pretty rambunctious, some a little wreck less, others hyper and some just plum lazy. And some of us just ain't worth a dime. But if I was going to hire someone to help me do something I think I'd probably hire that hyper feller and hope I could get his energy applied in the right direction. My thought on the subject.
Robbie


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[mark]

Ive said this before...... Im just a ride to the woods for my dogs once they understand COME,NO,and TONE

[dwalton]

Well said JC, just command sense with a cat minded dog and hunt their ass off. That's all that it takes. Dewey

[al baldwin]

Guys good thread. Just want to say I never hiss a dog, but did call those two older dogs back to where that two year old had left the road.on that yote scent, both just stood and looked at me, when that younger dog opened, here & there. That younger dog had started a lion track a couple weeks earlier that the others had missed, I was thinking maybe another lion, so told those dogs to go. My mistake, I caused those two to eventually run that yote, however, I did not encourage that two year old to start that track, he did it on his own, just as I had started to put trust in him. I have never been able to be certain by a dogs voice what game they are after. To you that have that talent you are blessed. Those older dogs were four & three but had seen some cats. I sold that female to my friend who now hunts with me, he enjoyed her until age caught up to her. then sold her to an elderly lady who told me she was one of the nicest dogs she ever owned. Thanks Al

[1bludawg]

I thought JC and Marks comments were right on.When i was in my 20's i believed i was a great handler and trainer.Years later i realized a well bred hound will make almost anyone look good .

[R Severe]

Great thread. Thanks to all who chimed in.
Does everyone good to question our opinions that we have formed over the years. I guess that's how you teach old dogs new tricks.

[South Texan]

I thought JC and Marks comments were right on.When i was in my 20's i believed i was a great handler and trainer.Years later i realized a well bred hound will make almost anyone look good .

Anyone who can take pups from scratch and make cat dogs out of them with or without the help of an older broke dog sure better give theirselves a little credit for being a dog handler or trainer. I have known to many that had bought good broke cat dogs to build a pack around and within a year them good broke cat dogs wasn't broke no more.

One feller had bought some good straight cat dogs from me. He was a little worried about them working in his area where he lived. I gave him a months trail. About 5 days into the first week he called me back to cash the check said he had done caught 2 cats and they were going to work. Things went well for a while with him catching more cats than he thought he could in his country. Then he went to buying young dogs and adding to the pack. Before long he had about as many young dogs as old dogs. Then he got to telling me how the cats could run up there in his country. Boy ever now and then they would pull out of the country, they could really run. This went on for a while. He had quit catching cats. He thought he had just got down to cats that had got spoiled and could really run. Then he called me, telling me about his race that morning. Long hard race really getting after it, then finally bayed straight up the road ahead of him. He jumped in his truck run down the road a ways and could see the dogs baying in a bush right off the side of the road. He jumped out run over to encourage dogs to get that cat, then with a closer look realized they were baying a half grown coyote. Said he couldn't believe it!

He had a good straight (or was straight) cat dog he had gotten from me about 6 years old at that time by the name of Buckshot. I asked him what did Buckshot do when you run up there as they were baying that yote in the bush? He said nothing just kept baying. I asked he didn't get scared when he saw you? He answered no. I then reminded him of his long races he had been having on them spoiled cats. He got real quite on the other end of the phone line. Then I told him if Buckshot never flinched, never missed a beat baying that coyote when you run up there, I can promise you that isn't the first coyote you have run. Buckshot had done got comfortable with running coyotes, he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. Long story short he had a bad coyote problem.

There are very few dogs that are broke forever "IF" you keep exposing them to off game. After a while broke dogs go to thinking "Hey, this is alright!" So....just because we have that good solid straight cat dog to train our young dogs with and we just hit the lottery with plenty of money and more time to hunt than ever before. Don't get to relaxed out there in the woods with the dogs. We still have to read what's going on with the dogs, are things can go haywire in a hurry! Another opinion.













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[bluedog4]

Great post really enjoy all the different views!
Question what do you guys think about the
Bio sensor Imprinting the Military developed?
I bought a pup from Mike Lenoard who had this
Done and I have to say he has been the most balanced
Early starting naturally trash free pump I have ever raised?
I do agree the environment and handler have a lot to do whit how a pup
Will turn out!
Bluedog

[mark]

Can you over break a dog?

[Varminator]

Mark, I'll say yes that you can over-break a dog!!
Which seems to happen more with females than males in my opinion, but have seen both.
Improper use of the Shocking Collar or mistakes on applying discipline, seem to have alot to do with over-breaking in the cases I've seen.
But I can remember Hounds that didn't care what you did, and as soon as it could would be off and running again. I've also seen the sneaky ones that you thought was straight enuff to let cold trail. Seen them run Deer silent till they couldn't stand it any longer.
I also believe most dogs will start and run Coyotes if given a chance, not saying the old dog but "Maybe"!!!!! JMO!

[twist]

A handler needs good common sense and determination!

[South Texan]

Have seen broke dogs that would not honor a dog they didn't know. I think some people would call this over broke. Never bothered me though. All you had to do is walk'em out to the track then they would go on. They would just not trust any dog they didn't know.

Ever see any kids when parent could just give'em a bad look and scold a little and the kid would start crying. Real sensitive. I've seen dogs like this. Boy this kind you really have to be careful with, matter of fact got one out there in the pen right now like this. So sensitive when correcting another dog this dog will get scared and get behind the truck. I saw him step on the end of a 18" stick and it flipped up and hit him in the side, he hollered and got scared, thought I done it. And I started this dog from a puppy and I promise he hasn't been over corrected, never needed to do much correcting on him anyway, this is just his nature being real sensitive. So I have to be real careful with him. Some people might call him over broke but he's not. But I think there is a lot of people that couldn't get along with him, just my opinion.

Then there is dogs that has just been burnt-up with the e-collar from people that don't know what they are doing. About 15 years ago a good looking running walker gyp was given to me because she wouldn't run. She'd been burnt-up bad. The dogs would start a cat and she would stand by the truck and whine. After about 15 cat races with me walking her into the races she finally went one morning. She went on to make a decent dog but I don't think she ever reached her full potential because of this over correcting when she was young. Basing this on the performance of her littermate sister my hunting partner had.. Was she over broke? No, she was fried with an e-collar from someone that didn't know what they were doing! Lots of dogs are ruined by people with a heavy hand. Them real sensitive dogs I spoke of earlier can be ruined in a hurry if you don't know what your doing, in my opinion. Guess I have to many opinions, I'll get off of here. Robbie


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[oneguy828]

Well the owner certainly does play a certain role in breaking or training a dog to run the right game. The most effective way that I have seen is to have the timing right as far as age, exposure when you do correct a hound no matter the way you choose to go about it. If you can keep them with clean dogs and bust em a time or two and have a little luck getting them back on good game, it's a fairly effective process but a lot of hard work is needed to create a situation where that is possible. The problem I have seen arise with breaking a dog after its a little older. Say in its independent age I guess your calling it is that some trust has been developed with that hound and you may be a bit more hesitant to correct them. Creating a situation like south Texan described. I think it's foolish to believe that your right everytime and trash will not happen but if you are consistent and right as many times as you can be and hunt hard it will sort itself out for the most part. The rest is splitting hairs. I have tried a few different ways of breaking dogs as I am open to many ideas that's just the basis of what I have found to be true. Most of the over breaking I have seen doesn't effect the dog much on catching game as much as it does starting. Which is more than likely a side effect of setups, I think.