training pups to cold trail

[al baldwin]

Hi M ic, Tom & I hunted 9 hours today never got a track the dogs could advance, Tom/s Maggie was the only dog that give a few half barks on one old scent. WE MUST HAVE LET THOSE DOGS SPEND AN HOUR TRYING TO FIND THAT TRACK, THE Colbalt bred bluetick that Don gave me, was out over seven hundred searching for that critter, he never gave one bark. At the end of the day Tom said it has to be a tough day when log can/t find a track good enough to give one bark on. We have watched on the garmin when He and maggie have search out over two mile on such a track, give a bark once in awhile as long as we could hear them. That day they had gone into a different drainage & were getting near a road. We decided to drive about half an hour around to try getting more dogs in. We had driven about half there, Tom stop and informed me Log & M aggie had turned & were coning back on their track. We turned back to head for the high point they had found that old scent on, Log arrived shortly after we did, maggie arrived about 10 minutes later. Is this enough effort to advance those old scents? Colbalt you can be proud as the breeder of that Log dog, he will certainly go hunting once he gets the least bit of cat scent, always returns to the spot where the track was started if he the track peters out on him. That over two mile scent ended when they hit a road where the sun was shining, we knew by Tom reading the garmin. Told my old friend Tom Barnett, about this experience, he said WHAT IS HOUND HUNTING COMING TO, in the old days you & I would have been busting butt trying to keep in hearing distance of those two dogs. We hunted that area before lots of the road that exist today & Tom has never hunted with a garmin. So, I conclude, any one using modern equipment, is shorting cutting dog training, plus getting much softer than hunters in the old days. Thanks Al

[houndogger]

Sounds like they took track backwards to me?

[merlo_105]

Or it was scent that was captured on a log or a skiff of grass or possibly an old piss post and the dogs couldn't trail off it but could smell a shot here and there. Not enough to trail but enough to make them go looking. Not every COLD trail is going to lead to a jumped race. Or in that case every time they smelled where a cat was a decade ago.

[pegleg]

Cold trailing is bred into a dog if they don't have some genetic ability even the most rigorous training isn't going to produce it.
For example SAR or prison dogs get trained pretty effectively and do a lot of exercises to help them reach their potential. But when a one or two year old dog struggles with focusing and finishing a scent line and a couple month old hound pup with little encouragement finishes it easily that's the difference between a cold nosed dog and a hot nosed dog. Most hounds fall somewhere along the better nose side.
But when a young dog comes in and takes a bad track away from older hounds then you know your seeing a better nose at work. Yes it helps encourage that ability but it really is genetic ability first then practice second.

[al baldwin]

Sounds like they took track backwards to me?

Any time dogs are working that poor of a track, going backwards is sure a possibility, with any dogs I have hunted with. Be it mine or some other hunters dogs. On this scent all the dogs had tried taking it another way, returned, then log found scent opposite direction & Maggie joined him. In all my years of hunting, have never hunted with dogs that jumped every old scent they cold trailed on. Al

[pegleg]

Maybe a better way of saying it is like this. Compare eyesight. If one person has poor eyesight and one has excellent eyesight it isn't going to help the poor eyesight much to look for things they can't see but the other can.
Sure everyone should make the most of their ability but if its beyond them that's all there is to it.
Those guys that have watched a dog working a track while another dog is running around excited and jamming his nose down everywhere the other opens yet just can't get enough to open itself. That's what it looks like. And track speed is a different trait then scenting ability. There's no reason a coldnosed dog can't trail fast. In fact most should be more able to lead then the dog struggling with scenting conditions.
Now if you don't run bad tracks your not as likely to see the difference. At the point that the guy with poor eyesight can read a sign easily so can the guy with better sight . but at that distance how do you discern who sees it better?
A dog with enough ability to pick up a track so poor that large sections are missing and real faint is by neccesity going to trail slower sometimes then that dog who can't trail anything old enough to really be faded out.
Its like tracing a solid line compared to a complex draw by number picture. Your going to be smoother and quicker tracing the solid line. It doesn't matter if its dark or faded its still easier then that broken line or dotted pattern.

[dwalton]

Pegleg I see it different even though it ends up being the same results. I think most hounds can smell a track about the same it is their disposition and what the brain does with the smell that makes one a better cold trailer than another. It is the other traits that one needs to be a cold trailer the ability to use what scent that they smell.One example would be smarts, what it does with the track when it can smell it, knowing and moving past the dead spots, knowing where to look for the cat scent, not running everywhere getting nothing done to forward the track but looking with a purpose. You take a person that can not read French no matter how good their eyes are they will not be able to read it. Just another way to look at it. As far as back tracking I have seen a very few hounds that would turn themselves around in a short distance and go the right way[brains] and I have seen some that just go back and forth getting nothing done. Just another way of looking at it. Until I can smell a track or the hound can talk it is just all made up as to what we think we see done. Good hunting Dewey

[catdog360]

Al, it sounds like you are convinced they had the right way. You allowed them to look until they couldn't progress anymore. This is what I think will help a young person out teaching them to cold trail. I sure wished I had a dog that would look that hard and search that wide. I've watched dogs like that and they will sure advance a rough track if they can get a line on its travels.

Mic

[al baldwin]

No Mic, I am never convinced they have the correct end of a track like that, unless I can find tracks or they jump that critter. I can recall other tracks where the dogs have trailed three or more direction before getting the correct end and jumping the cat. Just wanted to share those details to leave no doubt we try hard to get a jump, not near as exciting as bear hunting. Suppose that is the reason some think cold tracking is boring, I have not known any hide hunters who like trailing on those type tracks. Al

[twist]

If a track is to the point its so cold a dog is searching a couple miles to find the track a young pup will learn nothing from this I would believe. Only thing that will do is teach them to get bored and start looking for something to run that might not be good game as (trash). Again I'm no dry ground expert but just seems a little extreme for a pup just learning in my eyes. Andy

[al baldwin]

If a track is to the point its so cold a dog is searching a couple miles to find the track a young pup will learn nothing from this I would believe. Only thing that will do is teach them to get bored and start looking for something to run that might not be good game as (trash). Again I'm no dry ground expert but just seems a little extreme for a pup just learning in my eyes. Andy

Andy we had soon to be 6 month old pup out gunner& buddy, gunner is a granddaughter of your Topper again. That was the pups second time on a hunt, pup went with log & another younger dog of Tom/s, garmin said they stayed close to log most of the time he was searching for almost nothing scent yesterday & at times was 700 yards out. We never heard a peep from any of the three. I do not expect that pup to learn anything more that just how to navigate at that age. Tom was impressed with that pups actions & decided to take it home so it can go each time he is out. As I was raising the pup for him. We do not have a surplus of cats so just give them time & sometimes good things happen. Tom has hunted a bunch with Zip & I can tell by the patience he has in those situations. Al

[pegleg]

If a track is to the point its so cold a dog is searching a couple miles to find the track a young pup will learn nothing from this I would believe. Only thing that will do is teach them to get bored and start looking for something to run that might not be good game as (trash). Again I'm no dry ground expert but just seems a little extreme for a pup just learning in my eyes. Andy

This is very important and true. This is why so many strains of dogs do not make it here. Also why cat preference and a calm stable minded hound is what I look for. I've tried a lot of the better rated cat dogs here and the one thing that breaks them most often is their inability to get past not having easy tracks often enough to stay honest. If you work a dog hard day after day with no tracks and a occasional track like that it takes a certain type of dog to stay straight and Interested enough to catch those faint trails. I can't tell how many good dogs elsewhere I've seen that can't start a track here unless its smoking hot and its boredom to blame along with lack of confidence .

[twist]

Al, good to hear she is doing good. Hope she keeps progressing. Pegleg, if a person runs pups long enough with little to no excitement most will go look for action. Yes there are aays exceptions but for the most part pups with any drive will go find action if. Andy

[catdog360]

Two miles would get me nervous with a pup but 700-800 yards is perfect and I expect or should I say I would like my pups right there. That pup is going to learn a ton doing that. But better learn to pack up and this is why everyone needs to shut up if they lose the track. That way if multiple dogs are searching and are hundreds of yards apart and one barks I want everyone going there and that dog that barked better have a track. I'm not saying I'm there yet but that is what I'm expecting. And one yearling seems to becoming this dog.

Mic

[mark]

I think with the tools we have now days and some brains behind them any pup should know that the tone means stop NOW,before it ever goes to the woods. It should know that there is no harm connected to it if it stops what its doing. That being said when that pup leaves the dogs trailing and appears to be leaving on another track and opening (if in hearing range) a simple tone will send him back to the pack. Or possibly an older dog has checked it if not to far away and told on the pup. Possibly the pup pulled a rockstar move and had the track and the experienced dogs show that by trailing through where the pup had went. I dont think much harm has been done to the pup. I bet it stays with the older dogs and trails on through with them. I still think that pup learned more good than bad in that scenario. I know a lot of guys that consider trash races the end of the world and do more damage to pups trying to avoid them than they would by letting the dog make some mistakes on trash and deal with them in a non traumatic way.