crossing with running dogs

[macedonia mule man]

Breeding for a dog to tree bobcat would be the least desirable trait for me. Where I hunt it is to thick for me to go to the tree and from what I can understand very few cats tree down here. I've hunted with some boys that are supposed to have the real deal and haven't treed one yet. A lot of races end like you flipped a switch and the explanation is , he probably went up. probably is not a (case closed) word, it more like a word that keeps your mind satisfied. I have some running dogs / beagle, and one full running dog that have treed like coon dogs. Don't know what it was,it went in a beeck split from bottom up about 10 feet. I'll use that word( probably) a 50 lb bob cat. Back to the subject, breeding dogs is the biggest crap game going. There is a little bit of science behind it that is kinda understandable but if you are going to have any success as a breeder you will have to place as many pups as you can with people who hunt hard and already have good dogs that can teach a pup what we are after and how we are doing it. A good dog can teach pups a lot more about finding and running game than a trainer and a lot quicker.from what I've seen so far I don't think you can breed a specific strain of just dogs that won't to run bobcat naturally.

[undertheradar]

agreed. If youre after him hard enough, you'll catch him or he'll go up. At the moment of silence start working your way in the woods to find out for yourself. Im Looking for a hound that can strike a cold track, trail, and run a cat with running walker speed. I can take care of the rest.

[cobalt]

To me, being out west, the running dog NEEDS the tree dog in it's blood, but the tree dog doesn't necessarily need the running dog in order to finish being the complete dog. I say this having been around several running dog crosses that I liked a lot. That is why I ask about breeding tactics. I have never heard of a running/treeX line that is many generations of line breeding. The ones I've seen on paper always show an infusion of either straight running dog or straight tree dog every now and again to try to rebalance the equation. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that there isn't one I've seen on paper.

[TRW]

Well I don't think there has been many cat hunters here on the west coast that catch a lot of game with strait running dogs or even have breed to many strait running dogs. There is a science to it its called studying generations and track style of a dogs history. Just because a dog is a running dog does not mean it's faster than a good track hound the reason I like a little is in my dogs is for performance day after day lots of strait hounds have a tough time with the beating day after day. A good line of cat dogs that are crossed up with lots of generating evens out the hit and miss in the litter. Very frustrating to raise up a perfect cat dog and the tree never came or one that can make dogs looks stupid on the jumped end and won't trail just some things that a person fights with breeding these dogs. But I will say this if you get one that does it right you will have something to that can make things happen most other dogs can't.

[1bludawg]

TRW,I believe you described that as well,maybe better,than anyone has on here .You made some great points and observations.
You younger guys might want to re-read his post from time to time If you continue down this winding,twisting road of following the hounds.

[david]

1bludawg, it's funny because I read that post one time when it was first made, and have been thinking of someone that I wanted them to read it ever since. And I couldn't even remember what it said or where exactly I read it lol. Thanks for pointing it out again.

Thank you TRW.

[al baldwin]

TRW,I believe you described that as well,maybe better,than anyone has on here .You made some great points and observations.
You younger guys might want to re-read his post from time to time If you continue down this winding,twisting road of following the hounds.

I agree, 100% 1bludawg. Great job Ted. Al

[Clyde Lawson]

Really enjoyed reading all the comments in this forum. Some agree with and others, not so sure?
Never overlook the area that one has to hunt. I have been regulated to one of the toughest hunt areas in Oklahoma and that is the SE part of the State, due to population growth and our State passing a bill(sneaking it through really) where if your hounds go on private land you have to obtain written permission to retrieve them, + call the Sheriff's office to standby on site as I read the law.
Saying all of that, hunt only in area that is public hunting and really good hunting. Really rough and tough on hounds, but number of bobcats.

Breeding--I have mainly Running Walker, Triggs, and have crossed them+infused some oldtime Treeing Walker breeding on occasion. I do still have two 3/8 R. Walker & 5/8 Bluetick that raised from a good houndsman line of bobcat hounds. They will likely be in kennel until they expire.
Majority of my pack will locate and tree. Sometimes I will attempt to go to them and other times, I will call them off and into truck. When a catch is made on ground(which happens more then I like here) we mark with Garmin and walk to site.(When we can??) Sometimes I will pass!

Back to Breeding: Some one posted above about breeding or crossing is such a crap shoot as to what you will accomplish(and not cheap). Been there and done all of the above in past. Example: 7-8 years ago, convinced myself that if I bred a top notch, old time bred Treeing Walker male and female and train the pups for bobcat---wow! Friend of mine was contacted that raises, trains, & competes with just that, explaining what I wanted to do. Well he provided a female bred to Grand Night Champion---raised 6 pups. Kept those till they were year past in age and only 1 turned out as a bobcat hound? Others made fair coonhounds in the end BUT??? Now the point in all of this---I failed as a breeder.

Had been told & firmly believe----best breed cat hounds to cat hounds if you want to improve your odds to get a bobcat hound!

There are so many books available explaining genetics, line breeding, etc.. that prior to going down that road, I strongly suggest that a person save time, money, and lots of frustration by doing some real research.

I know number of good bobcat houndsmen with great packs of cat hounds that have done and do raise some great bobcat hounds. I encourage all that wish to raise & train to go and hunt with these fellows. Education will be invaluable, plus you would have a great time.

Bobcat hunting with hounds is not for everyone. And, if the kill is the most important thing in your hunt, you may want to re-think what your trying to accomplish?

The wily bobcat will be the most elusive game animal to catch and tree with a hound that you will attempt in the woods. It has been tossed back in forth in many of groups I hunt with: If your pack trees/bays/catch anything over 40% of those started---you have a pretty good pack of bobcat hounds!

Before I shut-up and close----in area that I am hunting, if you hunt with only 2-3 hounds, your percentages go below 20% max..

Suspicion same will hold true in & on those South Texas, FL, SE States likewise.

Have stated & still do---if you feel like your pack can & will perform better--load them up & come stay with me. I have camp with all the amenities that is 1 mile from our hunt area, so it will not take long to have them on a bobcat trail. I run the Alpha 100 with "70" screen that will hold up to 20 hounds, so we can not only hear a good race, wth can also watch what hounds are doing what?

Sure takes the B.S. out of what old so & so is doing! Really screws up a potential sale when old so & so turns out to be either a "me-to" hound or just one that runs to the rear and just barks a lot!

Told another friend that he could not get one of these, or if he did, must leave his gun at home! He did not take it well?

Have fun and a good hunt,

Clyde

[macedonia mule man]

Some people think more of their dogs than others do and some people are completely kennel blind, but I'll ask this question anyway. This is for the south east running dog cat hunters only. Have any of you fellows ever made a breeding, raised and trained a cat dog that would run nothing but a cat. A dog you could count on making a find, take it off the road to a strike, then run and contribute more to the race than the others in the pack? If you have, how many in how many years.the reason I ask is I was told by a cat hunter who had reall good dogs but couldn't take credit for ever training any one of them. They were all given to them bu fox hunters that wouldn't tolerate a dog messin up a fox race to run a cat. He said he bred these self made cat dogs to self made cat dogs and never got a pup that turned out as good as their parents. Are we trying the impossible or expecting too much?

[BAR BAR 2]

They were all given to them bu fox hunters that wouldn't tolerate a dog messin up a fox race to run a cat. He said he bred these self made cat dogs to self made cat dogs and never got a pup that turned out as good as their parents. Are we trying the impossible or expecting too much?

He may have thought he was breeding cat dogs to to cat dogs, but what he was actually doing was breeding sorry fox dogs to sorry fox dogs. The fact that these dogs turned into great cat dogs was in spite of their breeding and not because of it. Given the choice, the breeders of those fox hounds would have preferred that trait be eliminated. Had he culled hard and bred for several generations he might have worked himself into some good cat dogs, but you can't expect much success from crossing two dogs that were both culls and not true to type.



Tex

[Clyde Lawson]

Some people think more of their dogs than others do and some people are completely kennel blind, but I'll ask this question anyway. This is for the south east running dog cat hunters only. Have any of you fellows ever made a breeding, raised and trained a cat dog that would run nothing but a cat. A dog you could count on making a find, take it off the road to a strike, then run and contribute more to the race than the others in the pack? If you have, how many in how many years.the reason I ask is I was told by a cat hunter who had reall good dogs but couldn't take credit for ever training any one of them. They were all given to them bu fox hunters that wouldn't tolerate a dog messin up a fox race to run a cat. He said he bred these self made cat dogs to self made cat dogs and never got a pup that turned out as good as their parents. Are we trying the impossible or expecting too much?

Your not that far from SE OK, come and hunt with me? I will introduce you to other cat hunters with nothing but bobcat hounds. If my young hounds leave the road to run anything but a bobcat, the older broke cat hounds will not join in. They will stand and listen/watch or just ignore the younger ones and continue to road and look for a bobcat. I let the younger ones continue on until they open a few times then tone them or "light them up"..

The great thing(and I will show anyone that chooses to come and hunt), hounds bred to run cat from cat hounds do not take very much correction. I can show you some started 16-18 month old hounds that will, when fresh, bounce off of road on off track(maybe 50-75 yards) never utter a bark & come right back to road and older hounds. BUT, when it is a bobcat, same young hounds will stay in race until race is over. WE, including you, can listen to race and watch them on garmin "70" to your hearts content! I will be right there with you enjoying and attempting to learn more about this great sport.

I have a 11 month female 3/4 Trigg & 1/4 Treeing Walker that I took to woods actually hunting 7 weeks ago. Now she had a handle and had been run since she was 12-14 weeks old around my place and in our hay meadow mainly by my wife. She would come when called, go to kennel when told, and to rear of pickup when directed.
First time in woods, dropped her with rest of hounds, and she roaded just like the older hounds. Fox or coyote(did not see it) had crossed road and she and two other young ones went off road. I never waited but just kept driving along. They all came back and roaded. About 1/4 mile, older hounds started "flagging", then opened on track. Young hounds worked with older ones for maybe 100 yards then cat was jumped. We had about a hour race that never went more then 600 yards. Cat went into a clear cut that was fresh and ended up in a bull dozed pile of brush. All of those younger hounds stayed all the way, plus bayed in & at dozer pile.

Hunted that young female all week, never had any off game problems and got her in on two more cat races!

Hounds are smarter then we think and they know, if shown what we want out of them.

Will these same young hounds run off game? If you put them with a hound that will run fox, coyote, deer, etc.---I would bet money they would after very short exposure. That is another reason that I am very careful as to other hunters bringing their hounds and we hunting together.

There are hunters that come and hunt with me that there is no problem. But, they to, have a great handle on their hounds and they will only run bobcat.

We all have start/check hounds out there in a hunt. If any one or say two or three of those trusted hounds would say quit and come in or leave a race and go another direction----we all would be dialing up those training collars and utilizing that electric to explain the program better!

Another point--this just happened about a year ago---if a young hound takes a huge amount of correction on running off game. Then I will likely send that one to a new zip code! Or take to woods and leave there. Good friend brought me a red female that anyone would like. About every 3rd race, she would run a fox or coyote when a lose was made on the bobcat race. She would take my younger hounds with her for a little way and even they would quit her and go back to where the older hounds were working the track. After about 6-8 corrections on that female, I gave her away. I understand that she is still doing the same thing for the other hunter?

Enforces my belief that a cathound wants to run only a bobcat and that is what I want them to do!

Thanks for reading,

Clyde

PS: Call anytime and come and go hunting. Will be back by 10/1/16, with broken leg healed, and ready to get back to working my hounds.

[houndogger]

Hey Clyde can you define the term 40% of started tracks?

[South Texan]

[quote=I was told by a cat hunter who had reall good dogs but couldn't take credit for ever training any one of them. They were all given to them bu fox hunters that wouldn't tolerate a dog messin up a fox race to run a cat. He said he bred these self made cat dogs to self made cat dogs and never got a pup that turned out as good as their parents. Are we trying the impossible or expecting too much?[/quote]
Referring to Macedonia mule man's post

You can look at this another way. He said he couldn't take credit for training any of them. The fox hunter done all the training then gave them to him. No pups every worked out as good as the parents but "he" was doing his own training with the pups.

Sounds like the fox hunter might have been a better dog trainer to me.
Robbie

[scrubrunner]

Bar bar, I bet those hounds were far from sorry fox dogs. You need to understand the typical fox hound culture in the s.e. Most of the old time fox hunters ran 8-15 hounds with 1-2 litters of pups ready to be put in the line up. turn over rate was pretty high in those packs. If they had one that tended to like a cat they just knew where to get rid of it when the time came for it to go. I bet every one of those dogs the cat hunter got from the fox hunters was approaching its 5th birthday. It was time to move them out.
If it turned out to be a good cat dog I bet it was doing more than its part in their gray fox races.
South Texan, as far as the fox hunter being a better dog trainer than the cat hunter, I don't know about mule mans neck of the woods but Here if a cat hunter has a good one hour race once in 3-4 trips that's pretty good. The fox hunters were probably hunting at night and having a 4 to 8 hour race nearly every time they went, so the fox hunters put way more actual running on those dogs in 3 months than the cat hunter probably did in a year or more.
Mule Man, That might be why his never turned out to be as good.

[South Texan]

Mule Man you ask if anyone from the southeast has ever bred, raised, and trained a dog that would start, trail, jump and run a cat better than anything else in the pack.

I don't care where your from. If you can't do this, I wouldn't consider my self a dog trainer. Anyone can go buy ( or be given) dogs to catch cat, coon, hog, or whatever but that certainly doesn't make you a dog trainer. My thoughts on this subject.

Scrubrunner, I totally agree with you!