Mountain lion #'s vs Bobcat #'s

[Tanner Peyton]

So as a boy growing up and on into adult hood I often ran a trap line. One thing I almost always noticed in my area was the ratio of red fox verses coyote that I caught. During the years that fox numbers we're up and I was catching a lot of fox coyotes were down significantly, and vice versa. Now this makes sense to me because I see that coyote and fox share habit and a certain amount of food sources. So being in compatition coyotes will kill the fox if given the chance. I know this to be true because I've seen it and also one of the best ways to kill coyotes around here is to us a call that sounds like a red fox bark or one in distress. And on the years mange got pretty bad and knocked the coyotes down the fox had a chance to regain some ground, thus on ward and up ward the cycle continued. Which lead me to my next statement. Would the same be true for bobcat and mountain lion. A place I used to live and wanna move back to was pretty rich in bobcat and poor in lion has now seamed to flip flopped. Has anybody experienced this else where in the country?

[rockytrails]

I agree on Fox coyote. It holds true on cats vs dogs too. Lots of coyotes = less bobcats too. Really I believe it goes down the line, each will kill the lesser predator. I think it is to protect their prey base from the lesser predators. Lions kill coyote, bobcats foxes etc if the opportunity presents itself. Coyotes kill bobs, foxes weasels etc.on down. I have no experience with wolves or bear. I would also think bobcats in high coyote area would have to climb trees rather than bay up. Survival of the fittest thing. I don't think they actually go hunting specifically for the lesser predators although if hungry enough they will. Just my theories.

[rockytrails]

I have seen where lion killed a trapped bobcat and where a bobcat killed a trapped red fox. I also saw a badger and coyote fighting over a rabbit. I don't know who killed or found the rabbit but the badger left with the rabbit..

[Mike Leonard]

I have seen numerous coyotes killed by lions especially female lions. I think this happens a lot of the times when a coyote comes nosing around her kill and gets grabbed. I have however seen where they would actually ambush one for a meal. I have never found a bobcat killed by a lion but I am sure it happens. Bobcats are extremely cautious and careful where they hunt and if coyotes abound they like to hang pretty close to rocky bluffs they can escape in or larger trees where they can climb. A lion of course can climb too but he is not the monkey in the tree the bobber is. I have found where several coyotes have trailed a bob around in the snow hoping to steal his cottontail, and have seen where they treed him for a bit but usually they don't hang around long.

I have been told if you have a lot of lions around they will keep the bobcat numbers down but I am not sure. In some of the areas I hunt we have pretty good bobcat numbers and there are always a few lions living in there they just target different prey species for the most part. Like anything there are exceptions to the rule and I have found lions chasing jack rabbits around for a meal and turkeys and I have also found adult deer killed by a bobcat.



Funny badger/ coyote story: I was glassing out in a prairie dog town one time and I saw the dirt really flying and there was a badger digging out some young prairie dogs. Well along comes this coyote and gets up about 20 feet from the badger and just sets on his butt and watches the digging. Occasionally the badger would stop come up with a young prairie dog in his mouth dead and drop him by the top of the hole and resume his digging. The coyote would slip in grab the dog and carry it off a ways and drop it and then go back and set down. This went on for awhile and the coyote got about 3 prairie dogs. He then went over got all three in his mouth and trotted off. The badger came up and watched him go and came out smelled around and then just waddled off in that bustling army tank fashion they have. I don't think it was an agreed on partnership but with his short legs there was not much he could do. LOL!

[dwalton]

A couple of the old timers that were bounty hunters told me where they had trailed a lion and came up on a bobcat killed and eaten by the lion. It appears around here if the lion move in the bobcat move out except in I have seen where a female lion with young did a lot of deer killing and the bobcats would pull in to feed on the kills left. I have never had a coyote kill a bobcat in a trap and have had a coyote and bobcat next to each other in a double set. I could not tell which was caught first. I have had coyote eat bobcats that were killed by others and left at a set. In the desert twice I have had large toms at different times not run 200 yards and turn on the hounds. I think this is from the cats being use to coyotes and not running from the hounds thinking they were just coyotes. Just a guess. Dewey

[Mike Leonard]

Dewey,

I think you are right on them big tom bobcats turning on the dogs I have seen that too.

I just got off the phone with one of the very best predator trapper/callers in this country and I asked him about this. he said he had never found a bobcat killed outright by a lion but had trap line lions eat a lot of them out of his sets as well as coyote and gray fox. He said if he finds a country that is pretty full of lion sign he generally won't find much female and kitten bobcats in that area but the big tom bobcats seem to just not let them bother much.

[pegleg]

I agree some of our bobcats get some size and attitude and no one really messes with them. When a couple big hounds struggle to pull one out of a bush and get it stretched its got to be beyond the risk reward ratio for the average coyote. So far as lions go I think it varies with the lion. The only bobcats I've seen killed have been by tom lions. But I have caught bobs and lions in the same area often. Here lions rule the upper elevations and bobcats lower but there's a wide band of mixing .

[david]

Wow I love the badger stories. Boy don't you wish for a good telephoto video camera at those times.

There are a few coyote vs bobcat videos on YouTube. It seems like the cats have no trouble holding their own as far as survival. Seems like the coyote usually is trying to steal a catch from the cat. Sometimes he gets the prize, but does not seem interested in tangling with the cat. They are good sized bobcats though.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZxIFzEXwk

[david]

Here's the original "tree dog" treeing a lion.
I am guessing there are pups hidden somewhere.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WvQRKz1cc4


Have not found a YouTube bobcat/lion conflict

I don't know how that would go.

I know predators by nature tend not to expend more energy than the net calorie benefit would yield. Nor will they pick a battle for a meal if they can avoid it, unless the odds are hugely in their favor. They can't afford to suffer injury for a meal. It would be a net loss on the survival ledger.

[Tanner Peyton]

So here's my theory, it a pretty far stretch but it's the best I can come up with. Up until about 2006 the deer population in daws Nebraska county didn't have any big cats to worrie about for the most part. I do remember the game and fish checking in some where in the ball park of a 1000 plus deer at there station. It was also around this time when I was headed back to Colorado to take up residents after college and if you told someone at that time you had seen a lion they laughed. Bobcats were plenty full in 2006 and lions were sparse. It was in 2005 when the lion season opened in the black hills about a hundred miles north. I'm not sure if these two things have any thing to do with each other or not but that's about the time lion numbers started to grow around Chandon. I would suspect they were putting the hurt on the deer so the coyotes were missing out on a certain number of fawns. Thus they resorted to other game to fill that gap, i.e. Rabbits and turkeys. Taking into account the usual ways a bobcat dies along with the added food compatition it might explain why there numbers are down in that area. Just a theory. One thing is for sure though, lions are getting hit on the road and bobcat trappers are coming up with empty jaws now a days.

[david]

I think bobcat infant mortality would be a factor that might fit in well with your coyote theory. I don't think they would hesitate to grab a kitten.

But some of your data about the cats is from trappers, and bobcat hides have been very high. In an area like that you don't have the huge tracts of uncharted roadless wilderness to keep feeding fresh bobcats out to the roads. I have seen that one experienced trapper can have a huge impact on cats in that type of area. That right there is probably the only theory you need for what happened to your bobcats.

I am a trapper. I do not mean the above as an insult to trappers. It is just part of the cycle that goes with high fur prices. I have seen it over and over. It has happened even with coon.

When they open up a lion season, and fur prices drop, get out there and kill some coyotes, and Hopefully you will start seeing bobcat tracks again.

[Tanner Peyton]

I think bobcat infant mortality would be a factor that might fit in well with your coyote theory. I don't think they would hesitate to grab a kitten.

Also, some of your data about the cats is from trappers, and bobcat hides have been very high. In an area like that you don't have the huge tracts of uncharted roadless wilderness to keep feeding fresh bobcats out to the roads. I have seen that one experienced trapper can have a huge impact on cats in that type of area. That right there is probably the only theory you need for what happened to your bobcats.

I am a trapper. I do not mean the above as an insult to trappers. It is just part of the cycle that goes with high fur prices. I have seen it over and over. It has happened even with coon.

When they open up a lion season, and fur prices drop, get out there and kill some coyotes, and Hopefully you will start seeing bobcat tracks again.

I agree with what you say here, and when you had told me the Yohes were struggling to catch bobcat it sure got my attention. I did some calling around and numbers are down. One thing as well to take into account is when a fella who really likes to catch bobcat isn't getting he's fill will usually try harder putting out more traps deeper in the woods. Thus dropping the numbers lower and catching what few numbers were left. So your probably right David. What did my old man say? Oh yeah, don't be fooled by randomness. Lol, that and if you can't buy it you had better be able to build it.

[david]

I agree with what you say here, and when you had told me the Yohes were struggling to catch bobcat it sure got my attention.

"Struggling to catch bobcat." Is probably an understatement. Lol.
As in: they hadn't caught one in two years; When they used to always catch a few.

They sure are some special folks though. I hope you get to return there, right along with the bobcats. And I hope it remains a paradise for you, bobcats and all. Once you get authorized to help those ranchers out with their lion problems, you will be the MVP and busier than you want to be.

[rockytrails]

Coyote and bobcat recruitment is also very dependant on the food source. When we have die off of rabbits the litters of dogs and cats are usually smaller and higher mortality ,as David said, this is because of health effects on mom's health and ability to feed the young. Young can't be as healthy. I'm not arguing any other points. Learned disclaimers from Dewey:)

[dwalton]

Rockytrails disclaimers are an easy way out to cover your butt. Heavy hunting or trapping can affect bobcat population but ma nature is the real factor. Rain, rodent populations up and down have a greater effect. I don't feel coyotes or lions can take enough to make a difference. In the '7o and early '80 I depended on my bobcat take from hunting and trapping for a living. If I hit an area I could take 25 bobcats, the next year maybe 20 then the third year maybe 5. It did not seem to matter that others were working an area also. I learned that if I worked an area every other year I could take the 25 bobcats out of an area. Now I only hunt and will hit an area every other year with good harvest results. The exception is areas that have poor access because of wilderness or next to large locked up private those areas can produce every year. In western Oregon the bobcats need as other game habitat. Most of the private [best habitat] is locked up now and the public is in a no clear cut policy which is hurting all wildlife. The environmental policy is going to save it until it is all gone. Most environmental policies are the problem not the answer I just hope they[ the ones in control] realize it before it is to late. Hind sight is a great tool to learn from but always to late. Dewey