!!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

[Dan McDonough]

Dan- I agree. I haven't seen it either. I have a lep named Copper that ran at 38 next to the truck and that's pretty good but Vicki is faster than him. I didn't run a speed test on him with the Garmin though so that could be off some. I can't go out and run either of them for an official measurement because Copper is not hard condition and Vicki is still nursing her pups. When I get her dried up and back in good condition I'll clock a bunch of them and see what they can do. Right now I just know who is faster than who. I think Duce is the fastest but I haven't matched Duce and Vicki. Streak (Tommy and Vicki's mother) was the fastest of them all but she's at Minten's now.

The border collie x running hound would be nice but there are things that the sighthounds have that I want. That would be a great cross to pursue for someone else. The 3/4 running hound, 1/4 border collie might be the shorter route except for it will take some good picks to get one that locates and trees well. Locating and treeing on the level of a really good treehound is not going to be easy or at least easily repeatable.

The route that I see in my mind is to get the big powers of speed, agility, and brains together in one dog and cross to the great locating treedog and go through the process of hunting, culling and inbreeding to get something that is standardized. I'm figuring that will be part 4 or something close.

I don't think what I'm creating is the kind of dog that a pack hunter would create but I'm not a pack hunter. The dog that David had named Camo would have been a great dog to have around for all of this. Saddly, she died shortly after I got the ok to breed her from Pat. I haven't forgot the lessons learned from see her in action. That's why I think your idea of making a 3/4 bred running dog with the 1/4 border collie may be the shorter route. The greatest ideas are usually the most simple. The stumbling block may be the repeatability of getting those to breed to a standard. There is something about the way the sighthounds work in crossbreeding that tells me that they MAY be the secret ingredient that allows me to make certain changes without causing the tub to wash back and forth (so to speak) when I go to standardize this all in the end...almost like a fixing agent. It's just a feeling at this point but I'm running with it.

[twist]

The type of hound you are wanting is already out there in a full breed hound you just have to know where to look. Andy

[Jeff Eberle]

Dan. What do you think about Saluki's ? I wonder if there is any out of hunting blood in the US.

[Dan Edwards]

Your speedometer on your truck is off by about 10-12 mph. I'm not being a cunt here. I'm tellin you the honest truth.

[Dan Edwards]

Btw if you really want to learn about greyhounds and crossing them talk to some of the old field trial guys that have nothing to gain and nothing to sell you about what happens when you cross a greyhound to another breed. The simplest way I can put it is this, "Well........ya know you always lose a little." They don't know where it goes but it goes just the same.

In other words if you cross a 45 mph greyhound to a 25 mph hound you will not get 35 mph dogs. 28-30 will catch every one of them.

[twist]

Roading speed has nothing to do with track speed! I've seen some hounds that can road like no other but couldn't trail fast enough to scatter thier own poop. Andy

[Dan Edwards]

Roading speed has nothing to do with track speed! I've seen some hounds that can road like no other but couldn't trail fast enough to scatter thier own poop. Andy

Pretty sure we all know that. Well at least I would hope we do.

[Dan McDonough]

Andy- I'm listening. I'll drop this whole thing like a hot potato, just show me the goods.

Jeff- Saluki's are fascinating but the disconnect between their brain and our brains has always kept me away. Brian Plummer's warning in several of his books keeps ringing in my ears. To be honest, I really don't know how well they do in crosses. I do have a picture of an excellent looking example of a greyhound x border collie crossed to a saluki. I just don't see the success with the salukis in the mix that people have had for a long time with the traditional collie lurchers. I'd sure be open to going and watching one work if I had the chance.

There's quite a few Salukis that run in NOFCA on hare. They run a lot of their meets at the Lost Hills area in So. Cal. A good friend of mine has handled them for various owners. It's hard to ignore that they are the fastest dog at long distance running in the world. That point is always tough to argue with running dog men who have recorded 40+ miles in one hunt when their dogs are still running but I don't think those distances would ever have been ran if their dogs actually had enough fight in them. It's interesting to note that a good Saluki tends to get faster as they go farther. It's a trait that I've heard a lot of talk about in some strains of July that are also accompanied by feathered coats and some of the Saluki color patterns. There's a theory out there about Saluki had been worked into the breed way back before they were brought here to the USA. Not all strains of July have retained these attributes but a few have. If true, it should be tested for as those tests are readily available now days. I know of a line like that and I may just pay for the test if the owner agrees. I have two dogs that are out of that line but neither fits the bill enough to warrant a test one them. One of the two is a half breed and is a July x Stag cross. That dog is deffinately unique and leans more toward the July but can really drop the hammer and he's a killer.

Edwards- Well, I'll give you 2-5 but not 10-12. I've run my truck along with my GPS in enough situations to know that it's only off by a little. Also, I asked a police officer to give me a reading as I drove by on the hwy. with his radar and it was off by 3 m.p.h. at 70 m.p.h. that day and his reading matched my GPS. I just figured if he was going to be sitting there steeling money from people he might as well be doing something positive. Did you know that unless your driving for pay the rules of the road don't apply to you? I've opened up a can of worms but everyone ought to know this anyway.

I've talked to several old field trailers and like you said, they've got some very interesting things to say. It's a culture that is a little less present here in Wi. but there are a few guys around here that mess with stuff for the bear field trials and a couple of guys in the North that have screwed around with all sorts of wacky crosses...some very interesting stuff and a few things that worked out really well. One was a pair of dogs that could catch nearly anything much less any cat. One was a coyote x mtn. cur and the other was a son of that dog that was 3/4 mtn. cur and 1/4 coyote.

The Ultimate Cat Dog has not been made yet but someday...

I have to include that some great dogs that would more likely be called the ultimate pack dogs for bobcat are already here. What I'm going after is not that dog. What I'm doing is working on the one dog that can catch cats on his own nearly anywhere and not take all day to do it. I think a lot of breeders get sidetracked along the way and stop at some point. The more I think about it the more inclined I am to want to have no end goal at all and just keep going with the idea of twisting in what I need to get to the next level. Brains and locating ability will always be first. The one thing that I'm going to be keeping an eye out for are dogs that want cats first. I'm looking hard for dogs that have an unusual hate specifically for cats beyond what is normal. I have some of that in a couple of dogs but not to the degree that I think is possible. It's all out there.

[Dan McDonough]

By the way, I'm putting together a test based on two things to test dogs for an instinctual hate for cats. One is based on the silhouette of a cat and the other on scent...can't expect to find it if I don't have a way to look for it. It's just something I'll have to keep in my truck so I can use it on the fly.

[Dan Edwards]

There had never in this world been a "Lep" that can run 38 mph. Your cop and you have bad gear.

Again not being a cunt. I'm telling you straight up you are as wrong as 2 men (beep).

[ands]

Great reading men, pity theres no "like" button for some of the posts.For me the ability for a dog to hunt at speed is impressive and usually the only way to get regular results.
A fantastic hunter for something mostly greyhound.

[Dan Edwards]

I agree ands. I love a dog that hunts at speed and catches. Its amazing to see and I wish others would just give it a look so they can truly understand.

Edited to say I don't mean dumped out a truck on flat ground either. I mean actually hunts up at speed and figures it out and then catches. Its so dang cool.

[twist]

I miss very few cats that I turn out on and I'm sure there are many others that do the same or better. There is also a lot of difference between field trial RACES and a bobcat race!!! You are welcome to come for a few days and hunt during our season. Andy

[mondomuttruner]

I'm curious, what state do you plan on training these dogs in? With Wisc. limited cat numbers and even less tags available, these catch to kill dogs are going to be frowned upon in these parts. At best, you may be able to get them a handful of cats a year. I think you have an uphill battle in this state.

[Dan McDonough]

Edwards- Copper is 7 years old now but I'm going to start roading him with the lurchers and do another run for the books before he gets any older. I don't know if he can do it anymore but there's only one way to find out.

Ands- Thanks for that picture. It's going into my collection. To echo Edwards, I too wish more folks could see what these types of dog are capable of. There's something about it that makes every dog-man nerve tingle! It is very cool to see.

Andy- I don't doubt you. I'm just trying to go a little farther. I know what hounds can do and I think it can get better. I don't know if I'm the man to do it but there's only one way to find out.

MMR- The cat hunting isn't bad here if you have a decent amount of landowner permission. I can usually load up, find and catch a cat and be ready to switch dogs and go again in two hours. That would not be possible if I didn't live right in the middle of it all. I know where most of the cat crossings are and I know where they like to be. I used to hunt 6 days a week but won't be back to a schedule like that for at least another year. Having that much time to hunt and have it all within 30 minutes or less of home has been a huge advantage.

If you figure hunting just from Nov. through March that's around 150 days. Knock off 20 days for family time. Knock off another 40 days for bad conditions like heavy snow and that means you get out around 4 days a week for 20 weeks. If I only average 1 cat a day for each day hunted I'm still getting around 80 cat races in during the snowy months. That's pretty good for Wi. where most of the better cat hunters are happy with anything over 20 cats a year.

There's a fair amount of woodsmanship that goes into my hunting style so it's not like my dogs are all that much better than the next guy's dogs but where they excel is in their ability to NOT loose cats. These are the Leopards I'm speaking about. The lurchers were never so lucky to be around when I had that much time to hunt. Lucky for them though, I already know where a lot of the cats are around these parts.

As far as not killing cats, there are several tricks to keep that from happening.

I have no other tricks. I just keep my mouth shut, stay out of the way and try very hard to kill NO cats. I've only hunted with four people on cats in the eight years I've been here. I don't guide so when people call me wanting to fill a cat tag I find them someone else to help them and the only thing I contribute to their hunt is to let them know if I find the track of a big male when they're up here hunting.

I do have one trick that makes a big difference in the number of cats around here. I salt all of the best rabbit spots around here twice a year. It's supposed to double the rabbit population and I haven't seen anything to disprove that claim. I've got several spots that look like it rained rabbit turds when the snow melts and I take care of those areas very well. If your not familiar with salting for rabbits, it's nothing more than breaking up big salt blocks into fist sized chunks and putting a few of them in likely areas for rabbits. The trick is to put them where the deer can't get at them.