Scent/mouth question

[Allen]

How can some hounds that give a lot of mouth run a track? Would almost have to inhale scent at the same time they exhale a bark.

[1bludawg]

They're running with their heads up,taking scent out of the air.

[macedonia mule man]

How does a birddog point a single while retrieving a dead bird. The dead bird is usuall touching the nostrils. Some say sight, some ay a live bird has a different odor?

[Mike Leonard]

Right on, and that is the same reason a hound can catch a skunk get sprayed and a bit later strike and trail up a coon. They have a grid system of sorts in their olfactory system that separates and obviously can lock onto certain scent molecules while dis-regarding others. Pretty amazing stuff but when it comes to the sense of smell nearly all 4 legged critters are light years ahead of us humans. They don't have to be getting a solid stream of scent to follow a trail and some learn to leapfrog scent or drift like a heat seeking missile and move even a faint spotty trail and amazing speed.

[Allen]

Some dogs just seem so mouthy you wonder when they get an opportunity to smell.

[david]

Allen it is an interesting question. You are right some dogs bark SO MUCH on a hot jump, you would think they can't possibly be inhaling. But they must be inhaling or I think they would pass out. So they must be inhaling the scent molecules when they do. Barksalot has an interesting theory on this topic, but it is in his book, so I won't spoil it for those who have not read it yet.

But when there is so much scent, like on a hot jump, it might be more like us swimming in a river. It is pretty easy to tell if you are in the river or not because in the river you are surrounded by water. When you are no longer surrounded by water, you got out of the river. So then you turn toward the side that was last wet until you find yourself back in the river.

I know without inhaling when I am in the presence of h2s gas, or in the green haze of fresh skunk spray, and I can only imagine it must be like this for dogs on a hot bear.

Add that to Barksalot's theory, and you can understand why dogs scream like that on a hot bear track with out seemingly doing a lot of deep breathing.

[pegleg]

There's a few things to think about. Barking is expelling air its got to come in somewhere. So in through the nose out the mouth. Along with this is these dogs normally have a rythm to their barking which is pretty close to respiration rates for a running hound. And final thought I know if a scent is strong enough I can smell/taste it breathing through my mouth. So I'd guess anything I can do with scent my hounds are probably much better at. Sometimes we need to get back to the fact however Theyre doing it they end up in the correct spot . not so much the how even though it does occupy the slow time.

[david]

So then, back to Allen's question. Are dogs that bark less often going to be more accurate in following a scent trail? Maybe with Garmins now, we can answer that question. Mouthy dogs are obviously more likely to be barking out of place. Are they out of place BECAUSE they are mouthy? (And therefore not as focused on drawing scent through the olfactory receptors). Or do they just seem like they are out of place more often (because of telling on themselves with barking), and actually are equally as accurate in their body placement as more quiet dogs. ?

[pegleg]

I don't spend as much time hunting with this type of dog or running game that really brings it out in hounds. I can't really comment on the other type of mouthy hound those slow track straddling type dogs. I don't have much use for them and honestly havent seen it much except in beagles and the reason they are useful is obvious. But for a regular hound that opens more then his littermates or packmates. Young age with strong drive or old age and jealousy are two reasons it happens. But when its between otherwise similar dogs I really can't say there's much accuracy difference . what there is normally is over running or swing wide on turns. I do have a yearling that is very open right now And a littermate that isnt I know other motherless that are right mouthed or semi silent. This pup however is tighter on track then the others. He is genuinely exited by every track and pretty smart he bounces along about the stride of what he's trailing and is easy to read. I laugh at him often but expect he will mature into a great track dog. He is about as equally driven by trailing as he is by game.
I guess you have to compare similar hounds or the same trait might come from different causes and have differing effects. Some dogs seem to open more on a poor track then a hot one. But I think its a celebration over finding scent when its faint. And running to catch when they think its possible. I have one female that's extreme in this behavior the more she's barking the longer the day is likely to be. If she strikes and takes off she will probably be treed soon. I don't like it just because its backwards but have to admit it helps encourage pups to work harder on those bad tracks so is more useful then annoying so I live with it.

[david]

So what have you observed as far as posture when a dog is giving voice? I have observed dogs who lift their head to give voice as they move forward on cold tracks. And I have seen conditions when this did not hinder them, but I have also seen conditions where this loss of focus on processing scent was enough to effectually cause a loss nearly every time they raised their head to give voice while moving forward.

How do the southwest lion dogs do it? Do any of them give voice while maintaining the low posture of nose near the ground? Do they lift their head to give voice?

[ands]

Some great old footage for anyone who loves a bit of sound

Is it the leading hounds that make the most noise i wonder?

[pegleg]

On bad scent my hounds bawl into the dirt more. The strike is nearly always heads up and a half rotation while bawling. Same with their locate. The female I wrote about actually bawls in the direction of the other dogs or myself on poor tracks. The vast majority. Bark forward and low. The mouthy male pup actual barks down nearly overturning. He is like two minds fighting for control one is running his legs forward the other wants to give his nose and mouth time to savor the track. Which exaggerates the pouncing look. I've seen dogs who raise their head sky high for every bawl. Some English and blue dogs Some walkers that side step with the front legs while bawling. Most of my dogs don't change their position while trailing to bark. I can't say its a southwest thing or not. But it does bring to mind a walker X bloodhound that would pause lower his rear and throw his head up for every bawl. And a cur X bloodhound female that was similar.
Dogs that bark when their front feet hit the ground seem able to be very vocal with out loss of speed. But I'm not sure they are all as accurate as we want. Some are but others bark several times before they realize there's no scent. I've seen English foxhounds run like this more then any other "type". Now I'm going to be studing when where how and why my dogs are barking.
But I will say some voice types seem to have less impact on running track then others. The chop mouth dogs are one people think of but there's others whistlers and squalling. But I think the Fox hunters probably have a better idea how each voice tends to run. They have more types and range of voices run with more dogs to compare with. I don't think most voices have any impact on cold trailing and when it comes to running those that follow natural breathing rythms are probably best. I have seen sighthound make all kinds of noise squealing and grunting granted its not a rolling bawl but dogs seem able to breathe and talk in time.

[pegleg]

And the Fox hounds show up. But even Fox hunting varies from area to area. Scent is a fickle thing I do believe.

[scrubrunner]

I love a machine gun mouth, most are pretty fast, whether it's as accurate as other dogs I think depends on the individual. My experience is only with walker fox hounds, are that very excitable (hyper) dogs that act to me like they don't have good sense are usually fast barkers, I have a hard time trusting the accuracy of that type but have seen some that could flat sure run something, fast, totally focused on the scent and oblivious to anything else.
Some fast barkers act normal, I think as many of them turn out as other type mouth dogs.
It may seem at times they are not as accurate on the turns as other mouths because if machine gun mouth shuts up for 10 seconds everybody knows it, ol pulling or bawl mouth can over run it and shut up for 15 seconds and you might not even notice.