Breeding thoughts or Any anecdotal evidence?

[JTG]

Think about your statement below, about breeding "what you don't want, to get what you do want" and your next statement, "breeding exactly what you want". Neither is valid.
The mode of inheritance for most traits is polygenic, meaning the trait is produced by many genes.
On hounds with white, if you look, closely, there will be small spots of ticking, caused by the dominant allele T, which has a recessive allele t causing no ticking. The ticking color in dogs with white will carry TT OR Tt, that do not carry the white alleles of the S series.
Roan the R series is a different version. For information on Roan genes, Little (1957) and Burns and Fraser (1966)

Incomplete dominants can be really confusing, and I think that some of these traits might come as incomplete dominants, and the only way you can get what you want, is by breeding to something that you don't necessarily want, to get 100% of what you want in the offspring. With incomplete dominant genes, breeding two animals that are exactly what you want, will only give you 50% of offspring that are exactly what you want.


No, that is not correct. JTG

That most certainly can be correct. I'm not saying that any trait in hounds is in the form of an incomplete dominant, but if it was, that is the way it would work. If you want 100% certainty of getting a roan colored shorthorn calf, then you need to breed a nearly pure white shorthorn bull to a solid red cow. If you want to get a spotted clack and white New Zealand rabbit, or 100% in a litter, you need to breed a solid white one with a little black spot on his lip, to a solid black one. That is the way incomplete dominant genes work. In those cases, you would be breeding something that you didn't want to get what you did want, and when you bred two that you did want together, you would get varied results.

If you know the genetic nature of the treeing gene in hounds, let us know what it is.

[david]

For Rockytrails:
"An organism can be homozygous dominant, if it carries two copies of the same dominant allele, or homozygous recessive, if it carries two copies of the same recessive allele. Heterozygous means that an organism has two different alleles of a gene."

Praise the Lord for the Internet. Lol

I been looking up terms like crazy.

[pegleg]

Complex organisms have complex genetics and dogs are one of the most varied, in the same class as humans. There's a lot of things at play in their genetic make up. The conversation will be hard to have until a lot more studies and testing have been done On all dog breeds and then the family lines and strains can be looked at. Then perhaps we will know more about the genetic model of dogs and can talk in a more knowledgeable way about something like tree traits be a locating ability or what ever it maybe.

[david]

Was wondering for those of you guys using running dogs or crosses. Do you think the male or female influences propensity to tree more? For example have you experienced, do you think that a treeing male bred to female who doesn't tree or vise versa would be more likely to produce offspring that would tree? Be it tree hound to a running gyp or running hound to tree bred gyp? Or if your looking to cross tree dog x running and both dogs tree would you think it matters which one was sire / dam? Example running male that trees to treeing walker, or hard treeing walker bred to treeing running gyp? What if only 1 treed do you think it's more important for it to be the male or female?
Hope the question is clear...Any thoughts?

So maybe we are back to:

What has worked for you? Any data out there?

[pegleg]

Only that breeding a hound that trees to one that doesn't produces more hounds that fall somewhere on the spectrum of treeing then those that don't tree. And honestly most dogs of other breeds tree at least a little. Maybe the question should be what have the foxhound breeders done to insure their dogs don't? I have seen a lot of dogs that once they've started to Chase something would tree on their own. Whether it was visible or in a hollow tree or in rock's they still bark out of frustration. So if tree hounds are extreme versions of treeing genetics. And foxhounds are extreme versions of not treeing it probably is more of a meet in the middle type situation.

[JTG]

Yes, that’s right.

An outstanding line bred male tree hound to an outstanding female line bred running hound, that show’s interest or does tree. Than, breed the Sire to his daughters.
Years ago many of the fox hunters would give away their fox hounds, that would tree, to coon and bear hunters. The coon and bear hunters would give hounds that would run fox , to the coon and bear hunters.

Only that breeding a hound that trees to one that doesn't produces more hounds that fall somewhere on the spectrum of treeing then those that don't tree. And honestly most dogs of other breeds tree at least a little. Maybe the question should be what have the foxhound breeders done to insure their dogs don't? I have seen a lot of dogs that once they've started to Chase something would tree on their own. Whether it was visible or in a hollow tree or in rock's they still bark out of frustration. So if tree hounds are extreme versions of treeing genetics. And confounds are extreme versions of not treeing it probably is more of a meet in the middle type situation.

[david]

Yes, that’s right.

An outstanding line bred male tree hound to an outstanding female line bred running hound, that show’s interest or does tree. Than, breed the Sire to his daughters.

So your plan gets its tree from the male.

I assume that is because you have more potential options because of simple numbers of puppies that could be produced by parent/pup matings.

Is that true? Or did you get your tree from the male because you beleive the treeing trait might be passed more strongly from the male than it would from the female?

Or do you beleive male/daughter matings are somehow better or more powerful than female/son matings. ?

[dwalton]

Treeing shows up in a lot of different ways. As stated most curs and a lot of terriers are good tree dogs. A lot of the lion dogs from the southwest that I have tried up here do not tree here. A lot of dogs that tree coon and bear don't know where a bobcat goes when it trees. I have seen coon bred dogs tree when everyone else is but can not locate and tree on their own. A lot of first time cross with a running dog will tree on lion and bear but don't have a clue where bobcats go. Some dogs only sight tree. Some learn to tree with time. Dogs that tree before 12 months old usually become slick tree dogs for us bobcat hunters by 3 years old. Some dogs are just about perfect at locating and treeing bobcats. I feel good locating dogs on bobcats are good track dogs that don't rehash a track and know that the track has ended. BRAINS and track style make a good tree dog. With hounds there are a lot of ways to go with each trait you are looking for. Good luck with your breeding program and the traits we want in a dog. It is endless. Dewey

[JTG]

David,
Yes, numbers or the law of averages. A large gene pool to select from, keeping only the very best.

The traits will pass more strongly from the male to the female. If you run into a wall, than you could use sex-linked manipulations, for improvement in the next generation.

Nothing in nature is more powerful than breeding a male to his daughter, to pass on genetic influence.
JTG

So your plan gets its tree from the male.

I assume that is because you have more potential options because of simple numbers of puppies that could be produced by parent/pup matings.

Is that true? Or did you get your tree from the male because you beleive the treeing trait might be passed more strongly from the male than it would from the female?

Or do you beleive male/daughter matings are somehow better or more powerful than female/son matings. ?[/quote]

[Andyva]

If treeing was a sex linked gene, and it worked like most other sex linked genes that occur in nature, and you crossed a non tree dog to a tree dog then all offspring of one sex would tree and all offspring of the opposite sex wouldn't.

As was stated, there is probably a lot more than one gene responsible in the various breeds, and the dominance of those genes could differ between family lines, in other words, terrier influence could work one way, shepherd in another.

In foxhounds, every thing I have read has said that treeing was a trait to be culled for, or at least that a lot of people culled for. If it were a dominant trait, once it was gone, it would be gone. There would not be dogs popping up that treed out of lines that had been culled heavily. If it were dominant, non treeing would be recessive, once a line was established out of dogs selected to not tree, they would automatically be homozygous. Nothing could pop up that treed in a line bred family that didn't tree, if non-treeing was recessive.

If the treeing gene in foxhounds was a recessive trait, you would have to breed two that treed together to get any that treed, and all would.

If it were an incomplete dominant, it could make some of them tree, but not be too crazy about it, and make the trait pop up seemingly at random, with no rhyme or reason, and only once in a while would you get one that did it like it meant it, and vast swaths of the population would not, nor produce anything that did. This is what makes me think that it behaves like an incomplete dominant.

[dwalton]

JTG Have you done this type of breeding tree dog to running dog, father to that daughter to see the out come? Which dog female or male has the other traits one needs, deposition, desire, ability to move a track, conformation ect....? I think it would not be hard to make a tree dog by doing this but when you are trying to make a complete dog that has it all it would be a difficult thing to make happen. There are so many different things to be had for a complete dog. One trait that is needed could be dominant, one incomplete dominant or recessive. The combinations are almost unlimited. Now who do you breed to what ? Breeding for one trait be color,treeing, conformation, heart and desire would be easy but we are breeding for numerous traits that are open to each individual opinion as to what it should be now things are getting complicated. Good reading Dewey

[macedonia mule man]

I know nothing about breeding, but I know a animal health salesman that does. Quote from him( remember, to aquire a trait or concentrate one in a animal you will always lose something. When reducing limbs on a tree , you lose shade and wood. In animals the most damaging is loosing brains and reproduction. The most damaging in dogs would be brains. You don't gain a great deal of anything on first cross, sometimes nothing recongnizing. You start seeing what you started for in 2nd 3rd breeding within that first cross. You also start seeing what you lost.) I know when I have bred anything to a American fox hound , I have noticed a big difference in endurance and drive on first cross. It goes down. I think the intentions for a fox hounds was to run a fox race and make enjoyable music. Not to catch, kill, or tree anything.

[JTG]

JTG Have you done this type of breeding tree dog to running dog, father to that daughter to see the out come? Which dog female or male has the other traits one needs, deposition, desire, ability to move a track, conformation ect....? I think it would not be hard to make a tree dog by doing this but when you are trying to make a complete dog that has it all it would be a difficult thing to make happen. There are so many different things to be had for a complete dog. One trait that is needed could be dominant, one incomplete dominant or recessive. The combinations are almost unlimited. Now who do you breed to what ? Breeding for one trait be color,treeing, conformation, heart and desire would be easy but we are breeding for numerous traits that are open to each individual opinion as to what it should be now things are getting complicated. Good reading Dewey

My family had hounds since the cowboy days and before there was national forest, and they took some of our land for the national forest. My family had running hounds all that time, crossed with tree hounds, for many years, they ran fox and switch to bobcats around 30 years ago. The hounds would and did tree and catch thousands of bobcats, even when they ran fox.
The goal was to be the first to the bay or tree on horseback. Since Texas is mostly private, we ran out of room to hunt, although we never stopped hunting on the national forest and continued to use it like it was ours. We just would not bring a gun. The last of running hound crosses, were giving to me and I culled or fixed them all. In all those years, not a single hound was sold or given away, something I did not agree with.
I understand what you are saying about, some hounds not be able to hunt different parts of the country as I have seen, hounds shut down in South and West Texas. With good breeding practices, a good hound should be able to perform anywhere. I know my current hounds can and do.
In respect to what I breed for, everything.

[dwalton]

JTG with breeding the same line of dogs for so long you understand the problems of breeding and do what all the very top breeder should do keep all the pups and pick only the ones that meet your standards to reproduce more. How often do you out cross or do you just stay within your gene pool? If you bring in new blood what do you look for in your out cross? If you don't out cross does the size of your dogs decrese in size, stamina and litter size? It is good that you share your back ground on here it gives credibility to what you write. Thank you Dewey

[JTG]

JTG with breeding the same line of dogs for so long you understand the problems of breeding and do what all the very top breeder should do keep all the pups and pick only the ones that meet your standards to reproduce more. How often do you out cross or do you just stay within your gene pool? If you bring in new blood what do you look for in your out cross? If you don't out cross does the size of your dogs decrese in size, stamina and litter size? It is good that you share your back ground on here it gives credibility to what you write. Thank you Dewey

I would cut off my right arm before, I would do an outcross or bring in new blood. My litters are small, between five and seven and I like it that way, as I focus on quality. I see nothing wrong with an outcross for hunting, but not for breeding stock.
The goal to any breeding program is to produce a new generation of individuals that are better than the parent stock. My breeding program is using selection, using genetically superior males and females.
I am not breeding the same line as my family and close friends, had all those years, as I culled them or fixed them. The last one left is in my kennel and she is getting old.
As far as top breeders, that is a subjective subject and I find it interesting, those breeders speak of hounds twenty or more years ago. My way of thinking is what the hounds and I can do right now, today. One of the hardest things is explaining , there is a better way of what someone has been doing for many years or worse taught by a so called “top breeder.”(cognitive dissonance)
I write to help others and it’s up to them to decide if what I say is useful and understandable.
You seem like a nice man and forgive me if I come off the wrong way. I enjoyed your book and some of the houndsman’s you speak of in it, are dear friends.