Selling dogs

[Bon Plott]

What is protocol when "good" dog won't hunt for, or adapt to new owner? Some sellers may agree to take dog back, but have heard some argue new owner did something "wrong" and is his fault obvious pissing match and someone gets screwed. Lots of good breeders and hunters sell good stuff and stand behind them but not always the case. If you have to buy a "started" or " finished" dog do your homework

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[Dan Edwards]

Its pretty simple. Don't deal with a douchebag. Problem solved. If you are willing to sell a dog to some dumbass then prepare to deal with his stupidity. If you are dumb enough to get suckered by a crook then you deserve it.

[david]

"Selling dogs"

There are lines of dogs that transfer ownership very easily, and there are lines of dogs that have a very hard time with it. And in each litter there will be dogs that will have a harder time with it than their litter mates, and in my opinion, they are not that hard to pick out.

If a person knows that some day he is going to want to sell dogs to make room or for whatever reason, it might be something to consider in breeding choices and in litter picking choices.

Also, some lines of dog are quite easy to "ruin", while others are fairly oblivious to handler error, innsensitivity, lack of experience, etc.

A person who prefers the hunting/handling traits that go along with stranger anxiety, owner loyalty, sensitivity to handler error, or sensitivity to change in environment or hunting style; should anticipate more problems when it's time to make room. Or maybe he should decide to avoid the problem by not letting his dogs out, like was common among serious hunters years ago.

A person who plans to help out his family by selling any or all of his dogs at any point in their life and development might do well to find a line of dog that meets his hunting needs while also carrying the genetic traits for ease of transfer, and forgiveness of change and handler error.

[dwalton]

Well said David. That is why it is so important that people come hunt with dogs they are looking to buy or do their home work and check the breeder or hunter to see how how they or he hunts and what to expect. Some people like a smart easy handling dog and some people just like to take a dog hunting expecting to catch game. Not all dogs work for everybody that's why we have so many different kinds and styles of dogs. Each to their own. Dewey

[david]

When I think through several of the posts above, it seems that:

For a person who plans on selling dogs on a regular basis, temperament and adaptability MIGHT BE the most important considerations in the dogs he chooses to train and hunt. Because if the dogs don't transfer easily to new people, unfamiliar dogs, new environment, new hunting style and habits, etc, the man's reputation for selling great dogs would probably be trashed pretty quickly. It would not matter how amazing the dog was, others would have dificulty seeing the dog's value in time.

I will give an example from only one trait that will show the need for adaptability, knowing there are many:

Living in flat land and taking my dogs to the mountains on very rare occasions, I have learned that some dogs adapt instantly to rocks and nearly vertical situations. Other dogs who might be the very best dog by far on flat land, look like complete idiots their first time in rocks. A dog like that let out on trial would look like a complete joke.

I have seen it with my own eyes, when the only change was the environment, and it was the dog I still consider the best bobcat dog I ever owned or ever will. (She still caught cats, but, wow, it was painful to watch the adjustment).

Think what that dog might look like in that unfamiliar environment in a different truck, with strange dogs and a strange handler who does everything differently. She would have been a mess.

Keep in mind that I usually kept three or fewer dogs, but, I have sold every dog I ever trained up and was satisfied with. But the buyers not only hunted with the dogs, (unless it was a pup), for the most part they were people I hunted with on a regular basis and they talked me into selling them the dog. That is probably the best way, but not at all practical for someone who needs to sell a few dogs every year.

In summary, adaptability might be one of the most important traits in the dogs of someone who wants to sell a number of dogs and build a good reputation and enjoy repeat customers.

[floridacathunter]

An honest difference, of oplnlon, or level of tolerance for faults, can sometimes, cause hard feelings, or even worse, questions about ones honesty and integrity. No one ever appreciates either. I decided several years ago to stop trying to sell hounds. Never did sell very many anyway. Always figured" one good enough to sell, might be good enough to keep. Please! Don't get me wrong. I am not condemning the selling of hounds at all. I try to buy one every now and then. It's just not right for me.jmo.

[dwalton]

David I have been thinking about what you said about breeding dogs that can work for most people that want want. That works for people that breed dog to sale but for a few of us that breed for ourselves wither for traits that we want in a bobcat dog we have to be true to what we are trying to accomplish a bobcat dog. Of all the traits we need the two that people have the most problem with is treeing and brains. With treeing the track style we are looking for from experience comes more often from good cold trailing running dogs. With that in mind we are always crossing the line from treeing dogs that can located but not false tree and not treeing, most of those dogs come to the tree late 18months to 24 months of age which a lot of people don't like. They put treeing at a early age ahead of track style. Next is brains with brains you can get soft dogs that are easy to handle and train but will not work with someone with a heavy hand. The way I train and handle a dog I have very little or no trash problems. The worst thing that I could do with these dogs is take them out dumping on deer or coyote tracks and shocking them. Most would quit hunting for me if I did that. I sell a few young dogs and pups because I can"t keep them all and what money I make sure helps out. When I breed I breed for myself and what I think will be a cross that will work better for me. That is where education come in letting people come and hunt with me and see what the dogs can do and can't do. I believe bobcat hunting is the ultimate challenge for a hound man to hunt, raise or train dogs for but also the hardest to find a dog that has the ability to do it in style. As you were told by Tom years ago with the right dog it can be as easy as coon hunting. Without the right dog and knowledge it can be very frustrating for one self and their dog. David you are a thinker and are able to put what you think in words which make the rest of us think also. Thanks Dewey

[macedonia mule man]

Regardless what a sellers tells you or how much clout a seller has, you need to realize you will have to hunt that dog into whatever it is you are looking for.if you buy without trying that is extremely bad judgment and you have no argument. If you try him and you see something that tells you it might work and it doesn't , it just didn't work out. Try another one don't blame the seller. I never was forced to buy a dog, it was my decision.

[david]

Dewey, I almost said it, but then edited it out. That is because the topic was "selling dogs", and my post was getting too complicated. I think there are dogs that can transfer owners and be very forgiving of mistakes that can also make a lot of cat hunters really happy. I also know that you are not one of those cat hunters who can be happy with most dogs like that.

Yet, I wish there were dogs that made you completely happy and also transferred very easily to a wide variety of people with a wide variety of hunting and handling styles. I wish you could make a good living off your dogs, and I think it would help if you came up with a line of dogs like that. I think there might be dogs like that somewhere out there and I just wish you would find them lol

(Then we could go back thirty five years and you could teach me how to make a living off hounds, because that is the only way I could have hunted as much as I wanted to)

I know that some of my best bobcat dogs would not transfer very easily. I actually think that kind of sensitivity can show up as a function of intelligence when linked with certain temperaments in dogs. Yet I have a full hound in my yard right now that came from the yard of a legendary west coast cat hunter and might be the most intelligent full hound I have ever owned; and he would hunt just as hard for anyone who took him to the woods in the morning. He would need zero adjustment period. He loves me, but I am just his ride to the woods as far as his hunting desire goes. And you or anyone could be that ride to the woods.

So I guess I am just hoping people (including you) would keep an eye out for dogs like that who still please you; and maybe even consider these traits a little more when breeding. I think it might go a long ways toward benefiting non-hunting members of some cat hunting familys (through repeated dog sales), and toward making the sport more accessible to a wider range of people.

Fur is fickle. But there are a lot of really great bobcat hunters who buy dogs and don't Care in the least about fur prices.

[al baldwin]

If a hunter was trying to make a living training & selling bobcat dogs seems to me you would need to come up with a breed that matured into good cat dogs at two years old. That is not the case with these west coast bred walkers I have hunted with. When one adds up the expense it takes to produce a good bobcat dog that can be hunted alone & catch say 70 percent of the bobcat jumped at say five years old. How much money would a hunter need for that dog to make a living selling bobcat dogs?--------I believe one could make more money training coon dogs, recall a well known breeder telling me those sackett jr. bred dogs were the easiest dogs to train & sell because they were early starters & made track & tree dogs at a young age. Al

[merlo_105]

This has been an interesting topic. Most my dogs fall under the category, would not hunt for others. David, That dog you speak of, that line has produced some out standing cat dogs. The breeder to that dog sells all he starts and trains. That line has been good for transferring owners and continuing on with out a hick up. I don't know anyone that demands more out of his dogs then that breeder. He always has top hounds and is always hunting a young pack catching amazing numbers. Those dogs are always on the market and usually fetch a pretty penny. They might not suite a lot of guys. They like the hard headed hard charging type dogs. I'm sure you can see some of that in that male of yours. Least when I hunted with him. Anyways this has been a great read.

[dwalton]

I don't think anybody can make a living raising and selling bobcat dogs. I know I never have, sometimes I might break even but I doubt that is possibly either. Most top bobcat hunters that I know hunt for the enjoyment and challenge of bobcat hunting and raising that outstanding dog or making that cross that produces that dream dog. In over 50 years of hunting bobcat I have owned 6 to 8 top bobcat dogs and several good bobcat dogs but none of them were perfect. Like I said I hate selling dogs and never raise a litter unless I want pups from it for myself. I have sold several good young dogs that were good dogs but not better that what I have or what I wanted to breed to. Most everybody seems to be happy with them but all don't work out with any breeding.You might be interested in the crosses from up north that I made this year [Rose to Spud and Ann her granddaughter out of Tanner and Pepper to John, Spuds son. ] I am anxious to get the pups into the woods next fall from these crosses. I have got pups going from Texas to Births Columbia to good hunters. Come out again if you get a chance David next winter and we will see how they work. Good hunting Dewey

[pegleg]

I have a hard time believing someone could make a living selling hounds. I can see making a little money here or there but enough to support yourself?
In order to sell hounds they have to be what people want then they have to be good. I have seen several times when lack of hunting has changed the quality of dog real quick. Not to mention how a lot of people get a dog and breed it expecting something. I have thought about this and experimented with it some myself. But if you have four dogs the chances of having a real breeding quality pair is slim unless you went through 20+ dogs to get those four dogs first. I'm not saying they arent good dogs just that if their genetics line up and if they really are top hounds.
The idea you can breed a great dog to a ok dog and get more great hounds is flawed. I understand people hunting what they have and getting the job done with them that's pretty normal do what you can with what you have. But convincing yourself to breed them and then saying those pups are a good choice for someone's money is different. I admit that very few people see as many hounds on a yearly basis as I do so they might see things differently. But if your trying to improve or keep a level of quality in hounds you have to continually know where it comes from and have those best pups out of each litter. This probably doesn't make much sense to a lot of people and it would make for dry reading to explain each little step. But it's been proven to me several times over by the fact no one produces great dogs continually over any length of time unless they keep a lot of what they produce until they re finished or far enough along to know where they re going.

[perk]

Peg leg, this is a bit off topic, but i am curious. You stated:

'I admit that very few people see as many hounds on a yearly basis as I do so they might see things differently'

My question is how about many hounds do you see in a yearly basis? Are they all your hounds, hounds your trying, pups your starting, or do they include others that you may hunt with on occasion? The statement just struck me as interesting so I'd like to know, if you don't mind sharing.
Perk

[blackcreekboy]

Peg leg ,this also is a bit off topic ...
Look at the amount European folks have been willing to spend on bear dogs the last 10 years.
Some are making a living.