BIG GAME BREEDING

[david]

Mike, Lost Valley Rainbow was the female puppy I described which I picked up in Mac McCallisters yard. Cascade Cricket was born in my bedroom.
She was conceived in my living room, because we had some nosey neighbors.


Cricket's sire: Mckenzie River Banjo, was the other pup I picked up in Mac's yard. Bill Dwyer is the bear hunter who hunted Banjo on bear.
Richard Nickerson is the kid who saw banjo hunt on many occasions and came in behind Bill offering me lots of money for Banjo. (Richards parents were millionares, and any money they held back was only by Richards choice to try and become independant from them).

I ended up giving Bill half interest in Banjo. He put a ton of work and "publicity" into the dog.

Richard had at least two of the pups out of the M R Banjo X Lost Valley Rainbow cross. I dont remember the female's name out of that cross he had, but the Male was Mac. "Big Mac". Richard is the one who took Mac to a field trial at 6 months old and I believe he won the trial, or at least the dog looked very impressive, as Richard turned down an offer of $1,000.00 for the dog there at the trial. (I told an old county trapper about that and he said "right there is where two fools met"':o). Richard got in some legal trouble and had to eventually sell out. It does seem like he sold to Terry Merritt, but I cant remember for sure.

Lost Valley Rainbow was made into a UKC Dual Champiomn, Banjo was made into a UKC Nite Champion, but it does not seem like this hurt them any. Rainbow was only allowed to run coon and bobcat, so I have no idea if she would have made a bear dog. I always felt she was a better dog than Banjo, and probably would have done similar things on bear as he did. She was a much better bobcat dog than him. Some of that could be because of exposure and difference in training (e.g. typical 'bear dog on bobcat' problems)

The power of that cross is that it seems like the pups took on the strengths of both parents. I guess that is the goal of every cross: the pups out- perform either parent. It rarely happens that way, but sure is fun when it does.

I wish I could have found those White Cloud dogs you found. I had been hearing of them and had hope that they might be more what I was looking for in a bobcat dog. I guess I will never know. I let my dogs go, as they did not fit my needs on the coastal bobcats. I always thought it was because they were coon bred. You have made a point well taken.

[mike martell]

david, little richard was the guy who sold the dog to terry merrit, i remembered sam faulk saying when it was time to make an out cross he used banjo, he said banjo thru way better than he was, dale looney owned rainbow at the time, bill paetsch had a dog called cricket from that cross , that started the ball rolling with some early day walkers for me, when we were banned i sold off my dogs that is were i had to make a change with dogs as i saw enough of the walker dogs to show me i had to look no further, one of my white cloud dogs in canada treed a bear thursday, a real mean walking bear, looking like if she continues we will cross her this summer to a full white cloud male there, i'm heading to b.c. this week, i will hunt my two young females there for the balance of summer, if and when they prove out , then and only then will they be concidered for future breeding, at that time i will place a few to serious hunters to prove out as well, we run them on all game not all have what it takes but i don't feed coon, or lion hounds, they have to accel on bobcat as well as bear ,everything else follows with out much difficulty, the old line of walkers had some good bobcat and bear dogs in there lines, but they are gone, and life goes on, so now i strive to produce the best that i possibly can, none of these will get out to anyone for some time, as the real deal is good working class dogs not pups for sale ! i like to prove a dog on bear even though we can't run them on bear in oregon as i believe you get a good feel for drive, stamina, things that are harder to recognise when you coon hunt only, just my opinion, served me well for many decades, i probably won't change no time soon, but i will agree there are some good coon dog bred big game dogs around,

[david]

david, little richard was the guy who sold the dog to terry merrit, dale looney owned rainbow at the time, ,

Which dog are you refering to that Richard sold to Terry? I seem to remember the female going to him in New York, dont remember what happened to Mac.

Dale Looney was a good freind of mine. When I got deceived into taking a "guiding" job in Wisconsin, I had to sell and leave everything of value that I had. Rainbow was one of them. I felt good about her going to Dale though, he was a farrier (sp. horse shoe guy) and he kept better care of his dogs than most. He eventually bought a couple dogs from Tommy Barnes also. Banjo had been long gone to New York befor Dale got Rainbow. I am not sure if Dale ever bred Rainbow again, but I dont think so. I beleive she was 7 when I left Oregon.

I did not know Bill Paesch real well, but I almost remember him being the one to mention those White Cloud Walkers to me. That might have been the first time I ever heard of them. Did he talk to you about them back in those days?

Quite honestly, Banjo was a complete cull as a bobcat dog. If I did not know his value as a bear dog or stud dog, that is all he would have been: a cull. Also kinda hate to say, but every "legendary" bear dog I have ever seen on bobcat would have been a cull to me as a bobcat dog. I have heard there are GREAT bear dogs who are also GREAT bobcat dogs, but I have never personally witnessed it. I have seen some dogs that were mediocre to poor bear dogs that were great bobcat dogs though. The unavoidable yet unprovable theory is that it has to do with intellegence. I know Tommy B. told me that some of his bobcat dogs back around 1979 or so were dogs that had been culled as bear dogs by Sam Faulk.

People dont like to give Bill Dwyer much credit, admittedly, his personality was very abrasive, but without Bill, no one would have ever heard of that dog McKenzie River Banjo, or the pups out of that cross with Rainbow. I became a solitary bobcat hunter for the same reasons that many bobcat hunters go to hunting solo. I would have never known anything about Banjo's bear hunting, and his pups would not have pleased me as a coastal bobcat hunter.

It is awsome that you have found a strain of dogs that please you and can reproduce themselves. That was always my dream, but I never found it. I have found individual dogs that pleased me enough to keep them and hunt them, but they were mixed bred mutts. I wish you the best and hope you can keep that good thing going for as long as you are able to hunt, (and beyond for others that can hunt them after you can not.) Be blessed.

[cecil j.]

I remember a Wa walker sold too a NY hunter and the sell and his 2 teenaged sons with him and the dog. They stoped at the Ca. ACHA World Qualfying Hunt/ACHA CA STATE HUNT (2 night wkend hunt) at Gault Ca.
I drew outwith him and his 2 son`s and that young walker male either named Mac or Banjo I believe . I hunted my female redbone Ole Sugar that2 nights and Rick
Summers, Jim Gibbons, myself (c j pepper) and the ore or was hunter and his boys and walke male was on that cast. 2 walkers,1 redbone,1 plott on the cast .

[DWD58]

Mike...I used to know a guy that hunted walkers in Oregon named Robin Powell. Is he still around and hunting?

[mike martell]

yes sir ,last i knew he was in sutherlin- roseburg area of s.w.oregon.never met the man just know he hunted some good dogs.don't know his recent status,

[mike martell]

gosh, i'm going back in time, i think the dog richard sold terry was dub? the sam faulk thing is very interesting, i have always been critical of nose on a hound, having hunted with sam, first i will state that no man owned better bear dogs or hunted harder than sam, i never wanted any of his line as when i hunted my kate and amos dogs with sam , i saw something that stuck that i didn't like, we caught a mean bear right off, than, on the way out we struck a second one, we decided to run it as well, sam turned out two dogs, they worked around not finding the track, sam said, got a start dog? i said yeah, well turn it loose! i did ,kate went straight to the track opened, i cut amos to her, all the while those two were still hunting the track, sam said, what she doin, i said running a bear if you want in you better get after it, well we caught that bear too, i was always thinking sam bred color before nose, i know this will not sit well with some but that was my opinion, after watching a video of his with a bear crossing a road , the dogs just seconds behind, when the dogs hit the road they turned on the road and run down the road, this could have just been because of the scent traveling that way, not sure, but i was thinking if i made that video i would edit that out, but what an honor to hunt with a bear man of that caliber,i have a pretty high standard for trailing, that is what lured me to the white cloud line, but, (i always have to do that)some of those are not cold nosed dogs either, i had to weed thru those to find the strain i liked, when you owned and hunted some of the best, it makes you, no me an ass hole, if i have to put up with junk i will quit as with the cost of gas i don't like missing a track! another one of my idol's was bill paetsch he was old school, i don't think the number of cats he caught was that many, but it has to do with how you catch them, when you trail a lion on foot for three days before you close the gap enough to make a race you can stay with on foot because you aren't using a vehicle and telemetry, trailing daylight till dark than sleeping under the stars cause that's how you hunt, well you got my respect, you brobably figured out as a hunter i demand alot, it is a fine line on hating your dogs and enjoying them, i know for a fact, i happen to be hard headed as thats the only reason for sticking it out, if it was easy everybody would be doin'g it!!!! gonna be away from this thing for awile, going to b.c. to hunt with the boys, adios,

[bearcat]

Robin Powell is still around, I haven't talked to him in a few months, but he usually has something he can catch cats with, and it is usually young. I wouldn't call him a walker man, since I have known him, probably eight or nine years. He has had walkers, mathes lion hounds, hound/mountian cur crosses(at least 3/4 hound), Dale Cole bred dogs, and crossed up dogs with bluetick, black and tan, walker and I don't know what else in them. He likes to train young dogs and is always looking for something better than he has(which is usually better than most hunters have) so he always seems to be trying something new.

[david]

I remember a Wa walker sold too a NY hunter and the sell and his 2 teenaged sons with him and the dog. They stoped at the Ca. ACHA World Qualfying Hunt/ACHA CA STATE HUNT (2 night wkend hunt) at Gault Ca.
I drew outwith him and his 2 son`s and that young walker male either named Mac or Banjo I believe . I hunted my female redbone Ole Sugar that2 nights and Rick
Summers, Jim Gibbons, myself (c j pepper) and the ore or was hunter and his boys and walke male was on that cast. 2 walkers,1 redbone,1 plott on the cast .

Thanks for the pm cecil. I sometimes just cant get to a computer to keep up with this stuff.

You described Mac perfectly in the pm, and I appreciate knowing what happened to him. It is not surprising, as Terry had created a market for those dogs in NY, and pretty good money was being offered.

I sure hope you didn't let those Walkers dominate that cast Cecil

[david]

i remembered sam faulk saying when it was time to make an out cross he used banjo, he said banjo thru way better than he was, ,

Mike, that was kind of cliche' saying at the time. I am not sure that Sam ever hunted with Banjo to know what "better than he was" would be. The saying always kind of made me chuckle, because people were usually refering to dogs out of Rainbow when they said it. Funny how when you breed a good male to a female that is way better, you might get dogs that are way better than the male. I never said anything, but they might have wondered what I was smiling about.

If Sam chose a top female to breed to Banjo, I can only immagine the results would be similar.

I am not saying it is impossible for a stud to throw better dogs than himself. Actually, that is what makes a great stud dog great.
I am just saying it is funny how so many smart people totally forget about the other half of the equasion at times. If you cornered them on it they would say "oh I know, the female"... but when you listen to their conversations, you know they sometimes dont give the female much though.

Good to see your emphasis on the females, Mike.

Rainbow made her way into Sonny Turners breeding program also through a female named Lou that Ed Culwell hunted with him. Sonny saw the dog hunted with his dogs and asked Ed to raise a litter out of his male.
Lou was a daughter of Rainbow and Ray Mears' Billy dog. Billy was 1/2 Crowding Billy, and 1/2 Al Renick bred.

[cecil j.]

Funny you should bring up old Sonny Turnners name from over on the Ca. coast David, I and Sonny Kendricks, and the Homer Simms boys and Trippletts/ Cokey, Albert & Joe all had dogs of that and Sonny however kept mostly boushier blue triggs from Ky. after old Dancer died that was in all our line of speckeled dogs ofTrippletts ole Starr and Kendricks ole Trixxie and Joes ole Leanna.nd my ol Little Trixxie .

Ray Mears Treeing Walkers was also in Barricks Pat and Luke Barricks dogs he kept cause he had Robert Meadows/ California Jugg in Pat`s lineage and Jugg was 1/2 Mears line himself. So breeding my Big Bow dog too Pat, put Nance`s old Topper and Harlins Cowboy intoo the same mix through Rick Summer`s Ole Burt who was sired by Big Bow x Barriks Pat. I don`t think Rick ever un bobcat, just coon and bear and swam & drag raced his dogs and he still has that line of hound and a few genorations pasr old Burt andthey are real fasr swim dogs and field trial dogs and make bear dogs & coon dogs/you bettcha !

[mike martell]

DAVID, BOY YOU NAILED IT ON THE FEMALE THING, I JUST GOT BACK FROM B.C. WHILE THERE I HAD MY TWO YOUNG FEMALES ALONG, , THEY ARE 23 MONTHS OLD, DO IT ALL ON COON , BOBS, LIONS, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT BEARS?WELL WE TREED SOME EASY ONE'S ,THEY DON'T TELL YOU MUCH, BUT THAN WE GOT ON A SOW THAT RUNS DOGS, THIS SORTS THE FLY SHIT FROM THE PEPPER REAL QUICK!!WELL AS I FIRST THOUGHT ABOUT WHICH ONE WOULD BE THE HARDER BAY DOG I HAD IN REVERSE ORDER, MY LITTLE FIRE BALL WAS BAYED GOOD BUT MY RESERVED FEMALE , WEN'T POSTAL, SOMETHING I DID NOT EXPECT TO HAPPEN, SO WITHOUT RUNNING THEM THRU THE RINGER, YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, WELL ANYHOW THEY PASSED THE FIRST ROUND, BUT, (I ALWAYS HAVE TO DO THAT !!)SEE WHAT HAPPENS THROUGH THE BALANCE OF SPRING BEAR SEASON, AS WELL AS FALL, THAN WE WILL HAVE A BLUEPRINT OF WHAT THESE DOGS DO ON A REGULAR BASIS, NOT JUST SPECULATION, THAT IS THE ONLY TRIED METHOD OF MAKING TOP HOUNDS , I GRADE HARD, MY PARTNER IS JUST AS TOUGH, I FEEL LEAVING THEM IN CANADA WILL MAKE OR BREAK THEM, EVEN THOUGH THEY TREE SMALL GAME, LIONS, DON'T MATTER, I WILL ELIMINATE THEM FROM THE PROGRAM,

[DWD58]

Bearcat...when you see Robin, tell him D.W. said hello. I havent talked to him in several years. He is a great guy , and sure knows his stuff!

[Houndsmans Daughter]

Hi all,
I'm Bill Paetsch's daughter, Cindy. I googled his name a couple weeks ago, and this site came up. As I as heading out to Oregon to visit the folks for a couple weeks, I printed several of these pages off to take back to Dad since he doesn't have a computer.....yet!
Anyway, I just wanted y'all to know that he got a real kick out of reading this and in knowing that he is still remembered as a hound man.

For those that know him, he is doing great. At 82 years old, he is still team roping and no, he doesn't even need a stool to get up on his horse. posting.php?mode=reply&f=6&t=3390#
He doesn't have hounds anymore, but still loves to tell stories about those old hunting and field trial days. The man's mind is a steel trap! He doesn't forget anything!!

Thanks all, you made Dad and my day.