LION PROBLEM

[triplekkennels]

I WENT OUT LAST NIGHT AND WAS DRIVING SOME ROADS WHEN I CAME ACROSS A LION. I GRABBED MY ONE OF MY DOGS AND TURNED HIM OUT HE WENT RIGHT DOWN THE ROAD WERE THE LION HAD BEEN AND NOTHING, HE COULDNT START A TRACK THE LION ACTULLAY STAYED ON THE ROAD AND LAYED DOWN IN SOME BRUSH AND WAS WATCHING ME AND MY DOG MY DOG HAD HIS NOSE TO THE GROUND AND WENT WITH IN 3 FEET OF THE CAT!!! AT THAT TIME I TOLD MY BUDDY TO TURN THE OTHER DOGS OUT AS THE CAT SEEN THE DOGS RUNNN TOWARDS HIM HE WENT DOWN THE HILL I LINED THE DOGS OUT TO WERE IT WENT OFF AND STILL NOT ONE DOG OPENED ON IT. AND IT GETS BETTER MY BUDDY COMES RUNNIN UP TO ME AND SAYS WHAT THE HELL WE TURN AROUND AND ITS BACK ON THE ROAD BETWEEN US AND THE TRUCK. AFTER A LITTLE BIT IT WENT BACK DOWN BY WERE THE DOGS WERE WORKING AND STILL NOTHING NOT ONE DOG OPENED ON IT. THESE DOGS HAVE BEEN ON A PILE OF BEAR AND CATS IT HAS JUST PUZZELD THE HELL OUT ME. THE FIRST DOG I TURNED OUT WAS MY BEST DOGS IM NO NEWBIE TO THE SPORT IVE BEEN DOIN IT FOR 5 YEARS NOW. HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER EXPERINCED THIS BEFORE.

[Shorty]

I may be dead wrong on this but I'll say it anyway. People have said for a long time that certain animals can turn their scent off. I know rhat alot of times when you see an animal you don't catch it.

The police and boarder patrol dogs are trained to fallow the adrenaline scent that the creminal will put off. Not the actual scent of that person. I think their is something to this. I think an animal that you see might put a scent out from their adrenaline glands instead of their body odor glands. The dogs have never been tought to fallow this so that throws them off.

Now when they are tracking the desired game and get the track warmed up what happens. You'd think the game would put off that same adrenal gland scent. The answer is, I don't know. This is just some of those silly stuff that bounces around in my pea brain from time to time. I hope someone has it figured out and can let us know because I sure don't. Good luck next time.

[Spanky]

it seems no one touches on this topic in the past and it has been said by many very experienced houndsmen that if you had the answer to this question you could finally write that book about scent that has not been written.

Soo many factors such as time of day, heat, humidity, terrain, including mother natures uncanny way of making us all feel like amatuers take effect. Can they turn there scent on and off Hard to say, I'm not gonna say the answer is no, its one of them mysteries we do not have the answer too but it has been discussed many times do to the same scenario as you have described.

Anyone that says it has not happened to them is a full blown liar and will also tell you they never ran off game. If I had the answer I would write that book

[Ike]

[Mike Leonard]

Lots of great information already on this one, let me throw in a little story if I might.

A freind of mine who is a very astute professional lion and cat hunter and is also a serious student of nature and a graduate biologist as well told me a few things that helped confirm some of my findings over the years.

He was putting on a demonstration for some younger wardens and ADC folks and had some captive animals in cages which were suspended off the ground about 5 feet. In one cage was a large coyote who was laying down in the cage with his head between his front paws being very quiet and trying to hide if you will. They slipped up to the cage and he told the students stay back a ways. He said can you smell anything? There were people all around the area and not a person could smell the usual scent of the coyote. Ok watch this he said. He knelt down till he was at eye level with the coyote and slowly moved up to withing a foot or so of the cage. The coyote's eyes were darting back and forth but he never moved. Slowly my friend removed his sun glasses and looked intently into the coyote's eyes and open his mouth and showed his teeth as if he was growling at the coyote. The coyot'e eyes froze, and suddenly his pupil dialated and then as if turned on by a switch that heavy musky coyote predator smell filled the air. No he did not eliminate or urinate it just came out of him.He went from being a hidden coyote to a coyote in alarm or danger. Smells change. If the coyote was hunting he would have very little of that smell so prey would have a hard time smelling him. I drive by on the road and see him out there fozen ready to spring on a mouse or rabbit, and I whip the 22-250 up and fire, knocking him over he kicks a couple of times and dies but when I get there he smells heavy from that change when he went from being the hunter to the hunted.

This lion was in hunting mode or rathewr most likely killing mode, and he had a very different and light smell there on the roadway. If a dog had blundered into him most likely it would have been killed but as the others ran to it's aid and the lion went from the single glass eyed killing mode to the fear mode or escape mode the doga most likely would have run it well. Also if he had just been traveling along and not hunting he would have left more regular scent. iT IS A MYSTERY BUT ALL WHO HAVE HUNTED LION A LOT CAN TELL YOU ABOUT TRAILING A LION INTO A ROCK PILE AND JUST SEEMS LIKE THE SCENT WAS GONE, YOU ALL BUT GIVE UP AND ONE DOG BLUNDERS INTO THE LION HIDDEN IN A HOLE OR CRACK AND HE BOLTS AND THE DOGS TREE HIM. Yes when they get ready to lay up that scent changes so others cannot detect their presense or find them in their lay up.

I have watched a pack of dogs baying a lion and they stayed in tight on him and really harassed him and he is battling this way and that and nobody is really getting badly hurt. All of a sudden the lion changes his posture and he singles out one dog, he locks his eyes on it and flattens his ears and that glassy look of a killer not a fighter comes over him. All the dogs sense it. How? the look? No I think the actual smell changes and they will draw back and become more defensive than offensive.

Strange stuff but it sure keeps things interesting.

[Ike]

[Catman]

Heck I'll throw in a few thoughts. A person is no different. When a person gets scared or mad adrenaline starts pumping through his veins and yes he/she begins to sweat and some peoples body odor is way worse than others. I myself have always figured that most males of any species smell stronger than females. I figure that depending on the animal, its disposition, its habitat, and then there is also all the things Spanky spoke of like humidity, temperature (and the amount of change in) etc... I know of more than a few times my dogs have run an old track faster than one that I know was overnite in what I thought were decent conditions. I think this is a good topic though and I'm with the others if your dogs haven't made you wonder or embarrassed you a time or two in this way....you haven't turned loose enough Good luck and I wouldn't let this get to you to bad
Hate to edit but also Mike have you seen the look in a lions eyes when he's on the brink of death ( I know you have just a matter of discussion) There's no pupil...the eyes are almost completely dialated or undialated which ever means the eye is completly black

[JARED PLUMLEE]

i have experianced the same exact thing several time on bobs, fox, and coons. i used to hurry up and dump the dogs right out on it to no avail. they acted like it was never there and it didnt even exist. its very puzzling. i finally started just driving on past where i seen the critter at a good ways maybe 1/4 mile or so sometimes further and then roading the dogs back over it. sometimes it works and they can take the track and tree it sometimes they still act like theres no track there to run. but from what i have seen and done your more likely to do something with it by driving passed it and roading back over it. but hell thats just me many people may not agree with that at all. but anyhow i guess the point is YES that happens and i dont know why. i dont know if'n its the dogs mentality when they first hit the ground or something to do with the scent of the critter. NO clue at all.

[Mike Leonard]

Ike,

I have met guys like that that have 30 plus years at it and still don't know anything about stuff like this. How boring!


Scripture says the light of the body is the eye, and that is never more true than when you see the eye go flat as the life leaves the body of a lion.Their eyes are so huge and full of light.

In reading and old hunting story by Ernest Hemingway he spoke af a huge old bull elephant that was wounded and they finally came upon him and he had gone back to lay down amongst the bones of his Askeree(Small friend and companion elephant) who had been slain the previous year. As he lay there Papa said he had never seen more life than was in that huge eye, and never felt so guilty as when the rifle crashed again and the tiny bullet went into the brain and put that light out forever.

All life and death is pretty serious stuff and should not be taken lightly.

[mike martell]

WILL ALSO WEIGH IN ON THIS .AS IT IS A VERY INTERESTING POST, OVER MANY YEARS I THINK I HAVE SEEN IT ALL, ALL I KNOW FOR SURE IS THIS, WHEN I AM THRU LEARNING I'M THRU. THERE ARE MANY UN -ANSWERED QUESTIONS. ONLY THEORIES. ONE EARLY FINDINGS WITH ONE OF MY WALKER BEAR DOGS SOME 20 YEARS AGO. I FOUND VERY INTERESTING THAT MAY LINK TO ALL THIS STUFF. FIRST I ONLY HUNTED TWO OR MAYBE THREE DOGS ON BEAR. THIS PARTICULAR DOG WAS A ONE IN A THOUSAND , AFTER TREEING AROUND 100 BEAR WITH THIS HOUND SHE GOT CAUGHT BY A TOUGH BEAR. I HEARD A SQUAWL THAT I NEVER HEARD IN A DOG BEFORE. FROM THEN ON SHE WAS STILL TOUGH ON BEAR BUT I KNEW SHE WOULD NEVER BE KILLED BY A BEAR. AS I RIGGED THIS DOG ,WHEN SHE STRUCK ,I WOULD TELL MY HUNTING PARTNER ,THIS ONE IS GONNA BE A HARD BEAR TO TREE, OR THIS ONE IS GONNA BE EASY. THE TONE IN HER VOICE AS SHE STRUCK TOLD THE STORY. AS I RUN BEAR AFTER BEAR THE PATTERN SEEMED TO STACK UP WITH A GREAT DEAL OF CONSISTENCY. I ALWAYS JOKED ABOUT USING A COON DOG TO TREE BEAR. THAT WAS THE REASON THIS DOG JUST SEEMED TO KNOW WHAT WAS IN STORE FOR THE RACE BEFORE SHE COME OFF THE RIG DECK. THIS IS WHAT MAKES HOUND HUNTING SUCH AN ADDICTION. YOU JUST HAVE TO SPEND COUNTLESS HOURS IN THE BRUSH WITH A HOUND TO REALLY KNOW THEM. THAT IS THE REASON I WILL NEVER HUNT OR OWN MORE THAN 3-4 HOUNDS. AS WITH A BIG PACK OF HOUNDS YOU MISS ALL THE FINE DETAILS. I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE OR AFTER THIS PARTICULAR DOG AND DON'T EXPECT TO EVER SEE THAT AGAIN.

[pete richardson]

i finally started just driving on past where i seen the critter at a good ways maybe 1/4 mile or so sometimes further and then roading the dogs back over it


yup

seen that work -


i dont think they can hold their scent but i think that scent can change somehow --



seen a lot of stuff pretty hard to explain


- i cant smell anything compared to a hound


i can see pretty good

if sweat runs in my eyes - i cant see-

- i cant see much in the dark or fog - or looking straight towards the sun -lol


its not the same --but a lot of things can affect what a dog can smell -


i dont belive they can hold their scent but ive sure seen it seem that way -

[Big N' Blue]

Post like this is why I love this forum. Seems like this subject can be cussed and discussed forever and we will never have it figured out.
I have a lot of respect for outfitters trying to make a living hound hunting. Most of your hunters know nothing about hounds or hunting, just want to kill a lion or bear.
How do you explain to your client that has no idea about the complexities of scent and see a lion cross the road and the dogs can't smell him and the next day say you are trailing a two day old track. I rode up on a bobcat feeding on a dead horse last year, my dogs did not see him, I figured we would have a hell of a race, when they got there, all they could do is wiggle their tales and did not even get a bark! On the same trip I cut a fresh lion track going to town to get supplies and decided not to run it, this was about 7 o'clock in the morning. The next day at 1 oclock in the afternoon, out of curiosity I went back to that track and turned out and trailed it about a mile before it went up a south slope and burned out.
Some things about hounds and scent will never be understood but that is what makes it so interesting.

[African]

In the season of 2005 I stopped near the border of Zim and SA on the way back from Gwaai river to do a fill in Leopard hunt in a relatively dry area on a farm which breeds Eland antelope.The hunters had had no luck with bait and in the last remaining days were desperate for dogs.The farm workers knew the movements of the cats very well and one took me to a cave which a Tom frequented.There was a week old carcass of a young Eland calf at the entrance but no visible sign that the cat had been there recently.As the time was tight, I took a chance and free cast the dogs in the area.An unfimiliar hound, which was with me at the time, started to follow a line and a few hundred meters later a second honoured him.We worked slowly behind the dogs becoming ever more confident as the path the cat had taken was familiar to the farm labourer as a travel route of the Leopards.We came to an internal camp seperation fence and found clear tracks where the cat had gone under through a hole which the warthogs excavate.Several places along the track the dogs showed us where the cat had climbed Mopani trees, probably to scan for Impala.We were nearing the boundary by 12am, at a place where a ridge of boulders formed a small hill.It looked like it was man made, but just the work of volcanic and erosive activity.There was little doubt the cat was in the rocks.We decided to leash the dogs and send the trackers to the boundary road on the other side of the ridge to check if the cat had crossed into the neighbouring farm – which it had most likely not – this was fairly confidently confirmed on their return.

The dogs needed water and the boundary was close so I decided to rest them through the heat of the day and return late afternoon for a short race and a happy hunter.
But it did not turn out just like that.
After lunch, the PH and I returned to drive the boundary road, to ‘clean’ it with our tracks as an insurance.We could not resist passing the ridge and to our amazement there lay the cat, on the pinnacle surveying the land.Really large with a splendid broad head.In our excitement we rushed back to camp, loaded dogs, guns and clients and rushed back to catch the beauty.

We parked hidden behind the corner foot of the ridge as the PH wanted some video first.He took his client to the top of the opposite ridge about 250 yrds away and radioed to explain they had a shot and would call for the release of the dogs if the attempt was not successful.
While they were clambouring around the rocks I saw the silouette of the cat slink away and a few moments later the radio communicated the cat was gone.I immediately opened the tail gate and rushed the hill full of anxiety that the cat would sprint for the boundary, all the while cursing that I had not finished the job earlier.To my surprise the cat turned into the property.This was not revealed to me by the dogs! as they could not move the scent further than the ridge pinnacle!This, I was heart sinkingly forced to experience with my eyes, the escaping Leopard within 150 yards of the dogs which had cold trailed him the whole morning, but now could not detect scent further than where he had lay.I watched him from the top of the ridge as he crossed the plain to the next inclination, trying to mark his route so I may lead the dogs over it.This I tried, but although they were influenced by my enthusiasm, they could not respond.

Embarrased, I loaded up the soldiers and returned to camp feeling very defeated.
Although I had many explanations swirling around in my thoughts, I knew it was pointless to reveal them to the rest of the hunting party whom were now convinced I was mad.

The farm owner was a very nice gentleman, a wise old Afrikaaner, he clearly saw my mood and offered some comforting advise.Although he expressed his words to me with the utmost sincerity, they cut like a knife.
He said ‘You are a commited young man, and I believe in your ability to hunt these smart bastards, but I think you have the wrong dogs.I must suggest you try more intelligent dogs.Something like a sheep dog.They are very clever.’

[Big N' Blue]

African, Very good story, Anyone that has spent months and years following hounds have gone thru the same thing, some are like us that have no shame in telling it like it is, not how we would like it. It does not make a better hunter or a better dog to sugar coat what happens. It is always a learning experience. It sure does not make you feel any better though when somthing like that happens. It makes you question everything you know.

David

[RedShilo]

I tree on the order of 25 - 35 bears a year. One day there was about a 4 footer standing in the middle of the road. I had 4 top dogs on the box. I drove to with in about 40 yards of the bear while he stood in the middle of the road and ate dandelions. Not one dog made a peep.

These dogs had to have been looking right at this bear and nothing. My buddy grabbed two of them and ran down the road towards the bear. Ususally when you drop the tail gate and take two of the dogs the others start to roar. Not a peep. He and one dog in each hand by the collar. When he got about 15 yards from the bear, the bear looked up and bailed uphill. The dogs saw that and were then blowing hard. At this point I dumped the truck and we had 8 pretty good bear dogs but I think that track started getting colder as the race went on. We never saw that little bugger again.

All I can say is that is bear hunting and there aint much that cant happen.