is being a pansy genetic

Pops · Post by **Pops** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:58 am

or is it learned? are we as a people becoming so soft that even the hard folks are fearful? has technology made us weak?

before the civil war, hunting black bear w/dogs and a knife was a pastime among many southern planters. now people think i'm nuts for carrying a spear. our ancient forefathers hunted european brown bear, boar, wisent, auroch, lion, & wolf w/ a handful of dogs and a spear or knife. on this continent the native americans used lariats to catch bull elk and stabbed them w/ a spear or knife. Custer used a pair of scotch staghounds to CATCH a yearling bison bull which he then hamstrung w/ his KNIFE before killing it w/ his pistol. there was a bear hunter in california in the early 1800s that killed california grizzlies by riding upto them and when they stood emptying his 36 cal cap & ball revolver into their chest (essentially a single blast of buckshot) and then finishing it w/ his knife. and he killed enough to make a living selling hides. the spanish dons of california lassoed california grizzlies and/or stabbed them w/a spear from horseback. John Abernethy used greyhounds & staghound to bay coyotes and wolves which he would then catch w/ his hands (wearing heavy leather gloves) and tie and bring back alive.
but if anyone suggested doing any of these things today, experienced hunters and outdoorsmen would (& loudly) say it was impossible, that anyone trying it would be killed. hell yeah we've gotten soft. so soft our heart and minds rebel at anything tougher than a hard days work.

not only have we gotten soft but so has everything we touch because of it. once upon a time men bred and kept dogs so ferocious that a single 120# french dogue (bulldog) could throw and strangle a 300# plus yearling brown bear. whole kennels were kept of dogs that could consistantly kill 75-100# grey wolves with as little as two dogs. whole kennels were kept of dogs that could drag down 1200# plus armored horses w/ armored warriors on their back. and the horses themselves were capable of killing each other as well as the men who rode them.
the sad thing is that as a people not only not capable (mentally and emotionally) of emulating our ancestors, we're afraid to even create & own the beasts they did.

Big Horn Posse · Post by **Big Horn Posse** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:23 am

I don't think people are getting soft, I think it is a matter of nowadays people do not need to "kill" something in such a rough fashion. We have advanced in our "hunting tools" so to speak and can take game with a clean kill. We as humans are the top of the food chain, but that doesn't mean we need to be inhumane when hunting.

Your post to me seems like you are trying to prove how tough you are not how good of a hunter you are. Sorry to say, but a good hunter is one that respects the game they are taking with a clean kill not soaking in a blood bath by cutting it's throat then finishing it off with a lead ball.
:roll:

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:15 am

LEARNED "mostley" I feel, we are a by product of our enviornment, IMO

Either way Pop's, it was some good reading, did not know alot of that stuff

We have evolved and it is not a survival type thing or a way of life as it was back then, IMO.

Men were of a different breed back then, they probably were raised that way and that is what they seen all around them.

(example kind of) :oops:

Kind of like when I moved up north from the big city 27yrs. ago as a older kid, I met up with some kids that would drive around on the weekends and road hunt out their car windows mostley (22cal.) just rabbits and such, their was no drinking or drugs like we have alot of today, but were just driving around for entertainment I guess, they would even shoot rabbits around cottages, no one home of course,

This practice of theirs about gave me a nervous wreck and I quit hanging with them, even though everyone did it including their dads and siblings, it was a common practice up here, weather it was deer,coyote at night with full moon out in the fields, drove around shooting things, they did eat it no waste. or skinned it.

My point is they grew up doing it and had no fear of shooting a gun out of a truck at critter's even though it was illegal,

It just didnt feel right to a kid that was from the city that had not been exposed to it as they were from a young age.

Pops · Post by **Pops** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:59 am

BHP
i haven't done any of those things yet, except taking boar w/ dogs & a knife. but as soon as any of them are mentioned it's the "rugged outdoorsmen" that tell me it can't be done. almost all are stunned to hear they have already been done. and not just centuries ago but in the 20th century when people didn't "have too." it's not about going out of your way to "be tough," it's about having such weakness of heart & mind as to look at something hard or dangerous as impossible and never trying. instead it should be viewed as a challenge to be accomplished or surpassed.
forgot one Jeff, in south america in the early 1900s they used to hunt jaguar w/ dogs and a spear. the dogs would bring the jaguar to bay and the hunter would goad it into charging and catch it on the spear. now that take sand.
i agree Jeff, it's mostly learned.

liontracker · Post by **liontracker** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:47 pm

Geez, don't get me started! I believe that it is learned for the first couple of generations, then it becomes genetically imprinted. Humans are no different than other animals in that respect. It's called evolution. We have created such a vast array of artificial support systems, that we as a population in general, have lost what took eons to develope. As cruel as it may sound, I for one look forward to a serious national disaster (ie. terrorist event). Because at the rate we as a people are developing, I feel this is the only thing that will bring us to our senses, resolidify the strong moral values we used to live by and weed out the culls that we are artificially propogating. This is no longer a world in which the strong will survive and hard work is rewarded with prosperity. We are, for sure and certain, in the present predicament because of zealous greed and comprimised moral values. Personally, I believe that the vast majority of our problems are the result of 40 some years of being subjected to, and brow beaten by, the radical/extremist left that has become the cancer of this country. The general lack of respect for fellow man and the over the top emotionalism with which this group lives by used to be unacceptable. What happened? I think it is this: "something for nothing - greed and self centeredness". May God have mercy on our childrens' souls ...

Arkansas Frog · Post by **Arkansas Frog** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:53 pm

When I
went into the Army in 53 ,basic, they ask us in our company who had never fired a Rifle, please step forward, HALF of the company [about
240 men] stepped forward. I like to S--- Me going to Korea with this bunch.

But I had to admit they were from a 3rd world country, New Jersey.

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:54 pm

(Pops Quote)
in south america in the early 1900s they used to hunt jaguar w/ dogs and a spear. the dogs would bring the jaguar to bay and the hunter would goad it into charging and catch it on the spear. now that take sand.)

Yes sir it would !! NO FEAR, and if their was any fear, they must like that funny feeling that comes over one when confronted with it. Kind of like those adrenalin junkies that jump from planes, cliffs, bridges and such, they must like it.

Hey Pops, I just wanted to thankyou for your service to our country.

I would hope to have some "tough" men & women, to help lead are young boy's and girl's to battle even if they aren't the actual leader, just being in the squad can really take the "edge off a little" at times when needed most, for our brave young ones.

Nolte · Post by **Nolte** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:56 pm

Pops

If you want my opinion, the majority of that stuff from way back when is BS. You ever read any stories about the other 100 people during that time that would sit on the porch and eat walnuts.

Have you ever heard of a story that didn't get "better" with a little age.

My great grandparents came over from Norway. To get from the Twin Cities, it took DAYS of walking to get to where they homesteaded. In fact my Grandpa came up built a cabin and got it ready, and then went back the next spring to get the rest of the family. Now I can drive that same stretch back n forth n forth a half dozen times a day. And I'd bet good money that if my great grandpa was still alive, he'd be riding shotgun in my truck instead of walking.

They're are all sorts of boats now that can run rocky rivers, using jet motors or mud motors. You can buzz up and down them now like nothing. But you know what, sometimes I'd rather dip a paddle and take a canoe down those same stretches. It's just the same with any sort of activity where more technology is available. Some people are just going to enjoy it more by usiing a more primative method. And I say whatever floats your boat have at it.

I think the biggest problem with today is the "hands off" approach with kids. Or better yet the big deal that is made if a couple of kids get in a scrap. Heck that's all my cousins and I did when we were little. Somebody would get a fat lip or a bloody nose and it was no big deal.

jeff · Post by **jeff** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:00 pm

ArkFrog we posted at the sametime, and I thankyou too for your service
as well,

And your post is kinda my point in my last few sentences on my prior post.

horshur · Post by **horshur** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:23 pm

read about the 49'ers...Dyea and Chilkoot pass...brutal packs over 100 pounds...worst sort of conditions...when bennet froze up they just built a town on it's shores waiting for breakup...milled by hand with hand tools a church in the wilderness and boats to run the klondyke....all in pretty poor clothes by todays standards in absolutely brutal conditions....record snowfalls...

damn straight were soft

Big Horn Posse · Post by **Big Horn Posse** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:36 pm

I get what your saying and I am up for a good challenge as much as the next person. Maybe I am a pansy to say I would not dare take a grizz nor even a black bear with only a knife in hand unless I was fighting for my life.
Then again I am a woman and I leave the machismo to the "stronger sex" so to speak. Now, say if I was being charged by a grizz and my lad had only a knife in hand he better put it to good use and make minced meat out of that bruin. :wink:

I am all for a happy ending and can still belive in fairy tales can't I? If you lads want believe in your tall tales of Paul Bunion and the likes that are larger than life and wrestle wild pigs and bears with only their teeth for a weapon then who am I to say anything. :lol:

michael.magorian · Post by **michael.magorian** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:39 pm

It is definately learned uselessness, in my opinion. Now kids are so babied, they never even get jobs until college almost. They all have this idea that people should walk hand in hand and share money with one another.

Arkansas Frog, you weren't at Ft. Dix were you? If you were, my deepest condolences.

Grzyadms4x4 · Post by **Grzyadms4x4** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:59 pm

Michael I definitely agree. I think it has a lot to do with the Hippie generation and their kids. The whole everyone's a winner, everone gets a trophy, helicopter style of parenting is the new norm. My dad grew up in the 60's, and I learned a lot from his lessons about equal rights, and the stuff that really matters. Even he thought a lot of the Hippie stuff was hokie. Everyone thinks it's wrong to discipline their child, plus with both parents working the only lessons most children learn is through video games. This doesn't allow them to be a kid a screw around outside where you can get into to trouble, so to speak. It all starts with us though, the ones having kids now can raise their kids the right way. Maybe they won't be killin bars with their penknives at age 6, but maybe we can reverse the trend of pansieness.

Pops · Post by **Pops** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:20 am

i'll tell you anyone living a rural lifestyle is already pretty physically tough when we get them. farming & ranching never stopped being a hard job. the biggest thing we have to overcome is quitting. mental toughness is low now compared to when we were kids. the ones we get now are great great kids, they really are our country's best. i love them. thats why when we hit the sandbox, my number one concern is getting them home. they take care of the mission cause we train the crap out of them before hand.

Jeff
i appreciate it, but i also look at it as i get paid to have a good time. you can't beat that.

Nolte
you got a great point, but i also bet greatgrandad would have an issue w/ some technology making people soft and lazy.

BHP
it's okay for women to be effeminate, it's counter productive for us all when male humans are that way. besides under the right circumstances women do stuff that would scare the crap out of a lot of guys.