Bears outrunning Dogs

tman308 · Post by **tman308** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:30 pm

I am looking for some opinions from you all about bears outrunning dogs. In mid-August I went bear hunting with my buddy and his dogs in Arizona. The area is a canyon full of Manzanita and oak Brush. There are also some pretty big rock faces in the bottom. In August we chased a couple of different bears through this terrain. Around noon when it was around 90 degrees the dogs either got tired, were outrun, or lost the scent. We didn't see the bears on this hunt but from scouting I know there are lots in the area. Second scenario was this last weekend. We went to the same area and got on a point and were glassing the bottom when we spotted a big black bear working through the bottom. Turned the hounds loose and we were off to the races. The bear did the same thing as before except this time I had an Astro collar on the best dog. We followed the dogs for about 7 miles before the bear jumped off a 50 foot rock face. Thankfully the dogs didn't follow since there are two more cliff faces before hitting the bottom again.

So my questions are what does it take to get a bear up a tree in really thick brush country and is it fairly common for bears to outrun the dogs.

There were several big trees that the dogs and bear ran right past.

Also if you shoot a bear from a distance will the dogs lead you to where it expires and stay there so you can find it.

Thanks

Dan Edwards · Post by **Dan Edwards** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:42 pm

I see that you are fairly new around here so I will help you out. It would be best if you could ask these questions directly to Ike so as to get a more honest answer. This is probably why most have not answered you yet. They really want you to get your answer from the man, Ike.

bearbredplotts · Post by **bearbredplotts** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:38 pm

sounds to me like you jumped a coyote.
when i first started i thought we were running a bear but it never did go to a tree, just kept runnin.
then when i started catchin bear, i could actually hear the race turn from chopin on track to the most awful noise ever when the bear is jumped.
the dogs should eventually catch up to the bear, he might go to a tree if your dogs put enough pressure on him.
be honest with yourself and make corrections if you have to. i lied to myself in disbelief at first, then eventually got a shock collar and adjusted my errors.

Dan Edwards · Post by **Dan Edwards** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:50 pm

bearbredplotts wrote:sounds to me like you jumped a coyote.
when i first started i thought we were running a bear but it never did go to a tree, just kept runnin.
then when i started catchin bear, i could actually hear the race turn from chopin on track to the most awful noise ever when the bear is jumped.
the dogs should eventually catch up to the bear, he might go to a tree if your dogs put enough pressure on him.
be honest with yourself and make corrections if you have to. i lied to myself in disbelief at first, then eventually got a shock collar and adjusted my errors.

Are you saying that it is not possible for a bear to outrun your dogs?

tman308 · Post by **tman308** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:40 pm

On the hunt over the weekend I watched the dogs chasing the bear so I'm sure they were running a bear and not a coyote. All the dogs wear shock collars and tracking collars and my buddy and I follow the dogs. We don't believe in sitting in the truck waiting for a tree switch we want in on the fun of chasing and it gives us a chance to see the bear tracks and scat along the way.

Ike · Post by **Ike** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:07 pm

I'd listen to bearbredplotts on that one....a steady hound on track about always catches up to his bear! Then if that dog is a bear dog it'll pick it's head and push that bear to the tree or into a bay up.

When I first started running bears, I had several come out of the tree and run out from under my young dogs. It was late morning on those trees and I just figured bears did that. As my hounds progressed into real bear dogs that shit didn't happen anymore. A treed bear is a treed bear, and when they bail it isn't very long and they are back in a tree..........

ike :wink:

kickemall · Post by **kickemall** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:57 pm

If your dogs aren't getting run regularly and aren't in good shape then your going to get out run quite a bit. The best dog in the world isn't going to do much if its not in shape. If your dogs are tough and still getting out run very often then you better start looking for new dogs.

pete richardson · Post by **pete richardson** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:27 am

ive seen a few bear that could outrun the fastest hounds ive seen -

far as im concerned , a smaller lean bear thats been to hound school -

can be as hard to catch as an average coyote

Borderpond · Post by **Borderpond** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:21 am

I was waiting to see you put your 2 cents worth in Pete. I have seen many bears that could out run a good pack of hounds on certain days.Man, those 100lbers can be like track stars. When i was guiding full time, I hated to get on those when we had a client.We wouldnt kill them anyway if they treed so it was a double whammy. Tire the heck out of the dogs on an all day sprint so theyd be beat the next day.

I honestly believe that 80% of bears climb a tree as soon as the dogs catch up to them. 10% can be harrassed into climbing and 10% will never tree.

I guess logistics could play a big part in bears outrunning dogs too.If its big open country the dogs can probably catch up to a bear alot faster than in thicker country.

kdrchuck · Post by **kdrchuck** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:19 am

We've been getting outrun recently. Proven bear dogs in their prime that are in shape. Hooking on to small bear that run like the wind. tree, bail and never tree again. I think the bear numbers are down in the area and the same ones are getting ru over and over. Like he said above. They have had houndog 101 and the advanced courses. it's easy to make excuses though

PIGLET · Post by **PIGLET** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:22 pm

I can't keep quiet anymore, A bear can do anything it wants to, if it wants to outrun dogs it can, if it wants to walk and bay all day it can, if it wants it can run the grittiest pack out of the woods. If it wants to tree it can, and one day it may tree the next run forever. The other issue is the country, how much hunting pressure the bears get. example in the fall of 1994 in eastern washington we hunted 17 days and caught 12 bears. In the fall of 1995 in north central idaho we hunted 12 days and caught one bear. We had the exact same dogs, People are going to disagree with me and thats their opionion, but i've seen enough with my own two eyes to know that bears make choices dogs just try to sway which choices he makes...

Ankle Express · Post by **Ankle Express** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:08 pm

we spotted a big bear

How “big” this could be a bigger problem. To many variables to list to make any real conjectures but you do say “big”. Dogs may not be standing their ground and sticking. Big bear typically don’t set the woods on the fire to get away. Out of shape sounds like maybe a big factor as well. You can eliminate some of that w/out hunting, like roading. Seen a lot of dogs that will catch up and bark at the bushes shaking for several minutes or even get quiet till the bear slips on out and then they begin to run/trail again. Just staying behind. Will resemble a coyote race both ways. Either way once dogs fall behind and start back to trying to trail out a running track your race and hunt is most likely over. I’m saying once the dogs lose out of the scent in the air that allows them to pick up their head and run, which usually means they are some what close behind jumped game, then they begin to slow up and drop their heads and get slower and eventually quit and bear continues on its way. Sometimes bear will wait or stop and dogs can push thru and catch back up and race or whatever starts again. Bigger bear usually won’t go further than they have to. Smaller ones may not slow up till they are well out of the country. In my opinion on scent, running/jumped tracks requires speed to maintain that race unlike a feeding/trailing track which as long as its moved should at some point get better and jump. Your area and its factors like climate and terrain dictates how far behind a dog can actually fall behind a running track and recover or how long that trailable track is going to actually be trailable. The dogs ability and desire plays a major role but eventually even that goes out the window according to your scent conditions and the distance your dog is behind the bear. Cliffs, ledges, bogs, streams, rivers, downhill turns and so-on are typical tricks to shake out or lose the dogs. A bump in the road in other words that will get your dogs behind. It’s the top tier and in shape that handle this w/ ease. Its called running to catch. Dogs up w/ the bear will follow thru hell and high water but dogs that are even just steadily behind or worse will hang up or fall out at these points. Usually because the track transitions on them from running to trailing. Typically when bear hit their spots to shake out dogs, the dogs are getting close or pressing them and they head for a spot or dive downhill but something to gain space from the dogs and shake out the race. Everybody above could be right as well. Wouldn’t fool w/ hounds if I was out to kill a bear like your almost implying by taking the long range shots. Bad practice w/ hounds anyway but reward them for job completed. Ground or tree. Another thing that always seems to get us all at some point and is unexplainable at times but sighted or seen game is always the hardest to catch after you do start it for some dang reason. Everybody on here if they’ll tell the truth can share one of these experiences w/ you. Bear do get away sometimes and for different reasons but you do need to know why. Then decide if that suits you? Some outrun even the best dogs. May need to take a dog out of the pack or add a dog to the pack? Keep trying and give us more hints somebody on here will be able to help you out probably. Keep at it you’ll get there eventually if your trying. Short memory helps too in the beginning! Keep trying is about it though you’ll see something good/bad eventually.

Dan Edwards · Post by **Dan Edwards** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:08 pm

PIGLET wrote:I can't keep quiet anymore, A bear can do anything it wants to, if it wants to outrun dogs it can, if it wants to walk and bay all day it can, if it wants it can run the grittiest pack out of the woods. If it wants to tree it can, and one day it may tree the next run forever. The other issue is the country, how much hunting pressure the bears get. example in the fall of 1994 in eastern washington we hunted 17 days and caught 12 bears. In the fall of 1995 in north central idaho we hunted 12 days and caught one bear. We had the exact same dogs, People are going to disagree with me and thats their opionion, but i've seen enough with my own two eyes to know that bears make choices dogs just try to sway which choices he makes...

I dont think there are gonna be many disagree with you pigglywiggly. You pretty much nailed the door shut but so did alot of the others. I will being willing to bet this even. I bet there are bear out there that have been ran a whole bunch that have treed easy and had hunters walk into them and take pics. I bet the next time they tree just as easier if not easier and get their pic taken and this goes on and on. I will also bet that a different bear with a different mentality gets treed one time and gets his pic taken and decides that shit aint cool and you wont ever tree him again. If bears were all the same, it just wouldnt be any fun for you bear hunters. I know that every coyote I run is different. I know some coyotes wont run from dogs.(not real smart) I know some that wont run from dogs but boy let them hear your pick up start up to move to a better are to watch your dogs or something and buddy they are gonna find them a new area code. You cant catch em all.

HoundDawg · Post by **HoundDawg** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:20 pm

I'll go with Piglet on this one. You can surely help your own cause by what caliber of dogs you drop on the ground and what kind of shape they are in.

But at the end of the day, it's really up to the bear and what he chooses to do and if he doesn't want to be caught, the greatest pack of bear dogs in the world isn't going to change the outcome.

Just depends on the bear and the day and his mood I guess.

You can sure help your cause by throwing down a top notch pack but it really isn't up to the dogs. Ultimately the bear will decide the outcome.

Like the old guy around here used to say, "Dogs don't stop the bear, the bear stops the dogs."

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:59 pm

your all right it is the dogs job to make the bear change his mind tactics whatever some just know how to handle more types of bear and either get them to tree of bay solid .
Not all bears will tree but VERY few cannot be stopped . The number is less than most would have you believe .
If you think dogs do not inflict pain on a bear think again they will bruise that bear up real bad .
Take a dog that like the back end thier nutts are getting the brunt of it and it thier nutts are not almost getting grabbed then thier holes are getting wider.