Scenting Conditions in Your Area

[spruce mountain]

David your right we should just go where ever the post takes us.This has sparked alot of good discusion.About the starting at 8:30 thing that has as much to do with the hunter as it does the hounds and wether they can smell the track or not.Alot of times I would rather wait until it gets up to 15 degrees instead of getting out and going at 5 degrees or lower.And sometimes we try to freshen up the track if we can get around it.when your trying to run a cat in 2 feet of snow and the dogs are sinking to the bottom and the cat is only sinking in about 6 inches it really pays to take your time and try to freshen up the track as much as you can.Cold trailing a cat in those condition's is pretty ruff.The dogs will be worn out well before they ever get it jumped.

[sdred]

livetohunt about burns and bear I dont hunt bear but I used to fight fire in the mountains. And the one thing I learned is bears patrol fire lines I think because of the insect movements from the fire and the easy feeding. In the back country we always use bear traps to store the food and any trash went in them as well. Please fellas keep talking about scent conditions and the like very interesting!!!!

[NorWester]

now we have entered a whole other subject that has baffled me no end. I dont know, I guess we are supposed to keep focused and I am sure I will get the topic police after me again, but in real life, that is not the way most conversations go. Just figure we are standing by the truck chatting about dog life and roll with it.

I have never had any success bringing a dog to this area. I think we can still call it a discussion about scenting conditions, but I am not sure. I have carried many thousands of dollars across the country and brought back several different dogs that I witnessed myself in their home environment. One in particular showed me the most amazing performance I had witnessed up till that time. I had to own him, and actually, many years later, If I analyzed my debt, I would have to admit I am still paying for him.

Not one of those fabulous dogs ever once caught a bobcat again after bringing them here. The most broke would look at you like "this is a set up, I aint falling for this" and would refuse to run a bobcat track. Eventually you could get them to go, but half hearted and they never did well even after a few years of living here.

I talked to another man who moves a lot of bobcat dogs around the country. He said the same thing. He can sell dogs from here to other areas and they do fine. There are certain areas that he can not bring dogs here from. They will fail as bobcat dogs.

Weird stuff. It is not difficult scent conditions here for the most part.

Now this is some interesting ...good stuff.

What makes you so sure it's not the scenting conditions David?

I've been encountering a similar dilemma bringing in dogs to run hare in my area (the north west side of Lake Superior) and have had a very low rate of success getting dogs that can perform.
At first I simply jumped to the conclusion that I'd been ripped off, but I've now been considering that perhaps "things" are just different here.

The dogs that have proved to be somewhat useable are dogs with the strongest noses (cold nosed).
Now let me clarify something before I go on. I don't want my dogs to run old hare tracks and I don't know anyone who runs and hunts hare who does. The trouble is that the only dogs that seem to have some sort of success running hot hare tracks are the ones with the coldest noses a lot of the times. The hounds with what I term hot noses can't seem to smell the damn hare in anything but ideal conditions.

Is it just the scenting conditions here?

Maybe the hares have a different diet perhaps that makes them..... not as stinky as other geographical locations. I've been told that hare that run cedar swamps just plain stink......and taste horrible. Not much cedar where I run, the hare feed mostly on poplar saplings during winter.
Things of this nature make me think of bobcats......what do they eat in MN as opposed to elsewhere? Again, I would think diet has got to have some affect on how they smell.
I know it sure does with people

The first time I saw a northern MN bobcat I thought it was a funny looking lynx......didn't look anything like the southwest style bobcat I'd envisioned (from watching tv for the most part). Seemed like a completely different animal to me anyway.

Back to scenting conditions.
I've always thought humidity was the biggest factor. Here where I am if we get some humidity.....we can run. Trouble is that it just isn't humid. Our summers are the kind that if the sun is out....it can be warm, but never "muggy". The sun dissappears and the air temps fall off the table so to speak.
In winter we seldom get frost, don't scrape windshields much. Summer there is some dew first thing in the a.m. ......and thats when you want to run. Wait until noon and it's gonna be tough going even if it never does get to a temp that most here would consider warm.
I guess that's why the term "relative" humidity came to be.

[Dads dogboy]

Great post Norwester!

Diet certainly should have and impact on the "Scent Signature" that a varment will leave.

Dad and Mike Root (Lion hunter from central NM.) bayed up a young Lion 14 or so yrs ago. This Lion had been feeding on Skunks and smelled just like one. Dad gave Mike a hard time as to wether the Hounds were running the Lion smell or the Skunk smell.

After reviewing all of the Posts so far it appears "HUMIDITY" is the #1 suspect in good or bad scenting conditions.

Would you Guys (and Gals, don't want to leave out Big Horn Posse) please list in the order in which you feel these other conditions, and the time of the year that these effect you. ie: wind, moisture, temp., altitude, pollen or vegitation, etc.

Thanks!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[Mike Leonard]

C. John for me it would be.

1. Moisture it is the real enemy of a bare ground lion hunter. You need a little sub surface moisture to hold scent but any more than that or rain or dew or frost and it spoils the soup.Rain on it and you are a screwed pooch.

2. Heat extreme heat may not destroy the scent as much as most believe but it does have a very detrimental effect on a dog's ability to detect scent. Heat and dehydration will stop many trails that a cool fresh dog could continue on.

3. Bad soil : clay, sand, mud, burns like carbon spray for deer hunters clothing masks odor

4. Frost another form of moisture but even though at times you can see a track on it when the sun hits it it is gone.

5. Hard freeze like frozen fish it won't give off much scent.

6. Extremely high alititude. The thin air doesn't hold scent well and the UV rays of the sun up high burn it off quickly.


Now most of these condition prevail during daylight hours when the sun and warming ground temperature work agaisnt you. At dark some of these conditions either don't excist or are altered to some extent.

[NorWester]

1. Moisture it is the real enemy of a bare ground lion hunter. You need a little sub surface moisture to hold scent but any more than that or rain or dew or frost and it spoils the soup.Rain on it and you are a screwed pooch.

Wow..... that's interesting.
Mike, don't you fellows where you're located work hard to start a track as early in the a.m. as possible?

Wouldn't the relative humidity be at it's highest then, fading as the day heats up?
Or is it simply the heat of the day that you try to avoid by starting early?

What is it about the moisture that "spoils the soup" as you put it?

C.John, the best running for hare occurs twice a year here, spring and fall. The dogs seem to be able to smell the hare and lock on her/him a whole lot better than anytime else.
Now about the time I started running hounds I'm sure I would have been able to tell you exactly why that is
Just ask David....... I figured I knew it all

Unfortunately there seems to be an inverse relation of sorts going on here as the more I hunt it seems the less I'm sure I know.
A few more years of this and I won't know a damn thing anymore

[NorWester]

Then I talked to a breeder of Walker dogs that told me to"hunt dogs that were bred to hunt game in your country and from your country"I still live by those words today.

I agree. Pretty hard to argue with that logic I would think.

[Eric Muff]

I thought this question over a few times today,not because I didn't have an opinion but because I had some time on my hands.My old mountain pony "Dudley" and I spent the day riding a portion of an old Blackfoot Indian trail called the Nez Pierce.It slowly makes it's way along a deep canyon till it tops out in a wide sweeping valley that,after a short ride,meets with the Deadman's Pass Trail and then on to Elk Valley. A favorite hunting destination for the people of the prairie during the summer,it is very easy to get lost in your own thoughts.
Anyway I decided that my list of scenting condition hazards ranks as follows,
1.Absolutely Moisture
2.Wind,it is a wicked obstacle here in the land of the"Snow Eater" or Chinook Wind
3.Humidity
After that we are just splitting hairs.

[david]

[similar dilemma bringing in dogs to run hare in my area (the north west side of Lake Superior) and have had a very low rate of success getting dogs that can perform.
At first I simply jumped to the conclusion that I'd been ripped off, but I've now been considering that perhaps "things" are just different here.

Yea, that is something. If I had not seen some of these dogs perform on their home turf, there would have been no doubt in my mind that someone had been crooked and downright lied to me about the dogs. And even though I can think through it logically, the dogs that I did not travel to and hunt with first, I still have this gut feeling that I got intentionally ripped off. In my head, I dont beleive I was, somewhere in my emotions, It still feels like it.

What makes me feel a little ill about it is this: When I had to sell the bobcat pack that I first began to catch about 50% of the jumps, there was one dog that I know was the key to the success. This would have been about 1985 on the west coast and it was an Earl Davis pup I raised. I sold her to a super nice gentleman in Mississippi. He was trying to hunt bobcat without success. I told him what this little dog had done for me and he bought her. I never heard from him again and lost his contact info. I always thought it was strange that he never called me as he talked like he would.

After experiencing this stuff myself and listening to others, like you, who have also experienced it, I just have this dull ache in my gut. That ache is the very real likelihood that that man never caught a bobcat with my best dog. And that is bad enough. what is worse is that he would have experienced the same thoughts about a rip off artist.

Wow. It makes me sad on a few different levels. One of them is just that I potentially placed a super little dog in a place where she never again experienced completion like she had where she was from. I hope I am wrong. I hope he caught a lot of cats with her.

[david]

[......what do they eat in MN as opposed to elsewhere? Again, I would think diet has got to have some affect on how they smell.
I know it sure does with people

The first time I saw a northern MN bobcat I thought it was a funny looking lynx......didn't look anything like the southwest style bobcat I'd envisioned (from watching tv for the most part). Seemed like a completely different animal to me anyway.

Back to scenting conditions.
I've always thought humidity was the biggest factor. Here where I am if we get some humidity.....we can run. .

As far as what they eat. Most bobcats #1 is some form of rabbit. Then you are back to what do the rabbits eat. But in the area most of these dogs were moved from, their #1 food is not the rabbit, but the mountain beaver (a burrowing rodent that thrives in clear cut and new growth).

And there is no doubt these upper Midwest cats are different. Just in Oregon alone there are three very distinctive sub species that dont even look similar except that they all look like bobcats. But I never had any problem running all three with the same dogs. But now, I was taking dogs hunted on the coast range (extremely heavy brush and no snow) where they could barely get the job done, if at all. Then taking them to the cascades or desert (more open, snow) where they did amazing and I cant even remember them missing. I dont think it would have worked the other way, but will never know for sure.

"hunt dogs that were bred to hunt game in your country and from your country"I still live by those words today.

Eric, were you the one who said you had tried pups from other areas with success, but not adult dogs? I mean the ideal would be what you mentioned here: bred for your country and from your country, but in some areas bobcat hunting has only been legal for a year or two now. And in other areas, there are very restrictive laws and veryfew bobcats. In those areas, for the most part, there is not a breed that has been developed specifically for bobcat. It would be pretty tough to do given those limitations.

I never have bought pups from the areas where I bought the trained dogs. But I sure would like to see how pups brought to the upper midwest and raised and trained here would do. My guess is that they would do well. It is only a guess. There are a couple areas where the finishing, or "closing" factors would be very different here. But other than that, I bet they would do great.

As far as humidity, I sure wish Jim C would break down and make some posts on here. He has trained hundreds of dogs, and kept a very organized record of humidity and barometric preasure. He has some very strong feelings about it from his records and the way the dogs do in each condition. I hate to say anything for fear of misquoting him or making my darn sweeping statements. But I will stick my neck out and say that he said high humidity was the worst. He gave me a figure which I will not quote, but he said after that point in the upper humidity readings, dogs could barely follow a coyote in the coyote pen.

[Nolte]

My two worst factors are heat/humidity. The dogs can't seem to smell a thing and even if they do, they can't run hard enough to have a chance to catch. I think the worst thing it that there is a possiblity I'll have to go in and wrangle them up while it feels like you're in a steam bath. Usually in the brush there is NO air movement.

I really like to run in the rain. Not a hard driving rain, but a good steady rain. The dogs stay cool and run hard, no one else is out and you never get yelled at from some cabin owner who hears the dogs. The only problem is you are probably going to need the track started before the rain or get a real good track (or visual) to put down on. It kinds of sucks for hearing/following the dogs, but the other good factors make up for it. I wouldn't want to do it all the time, but it is nice once in awhile especially if you're in a streak of hot weather.

[Budd Denny]

A friend of mine brought a older dog up here from Oklahoma (I believe David know who I'm talking of) two years ago and she is finally becoming acclimated to our hunting conditions. Most people would have given up long ago on this dog but the man that brought her here has WAY more patience than most houndsmen I know and now has a fine little cat dog. David, how long did you give those dogs you brought up here a chance to get acclimated to our area?
I have brought dogs from Maine to here and had success, also took dogs there and had success.

[Waterway]

I will sure go along with moisture and humidity importance for good tracking. Still when you discuss relocating a mature hound is that the big problem? I think not. I believe it is more to to do with the micro flora and other strange oders in the new area that that confuse a relocated hound than anything else. I have never tried to relocate a mature hound but have bought pups (have one coming from assasin in NM now) and have never had a problem. So I believe it must be a much bigger adjustment than just moisture and humidity. I am certainly no authority as I have a terrible sens of smell

Mel

[NorWester]

I see a lot of fellows are listing heat/humidity as one of the pitfalls. Is the general consensus that the two factors always go hand in hand?

Heat is always detrimental to any activity involving dogs. It's their "Achilles heel" and they have a hard time functioning in it and I can't imagine their noses would be an exception. Heat also drys out scent rapidly in some instances and must certainly speed up the process by which scent is dispersed or broken down.
But humidity is something else. Without some humidity there won't be any scent.

Nolte mentioned he's had some good luck running in some rain. I've had decent luck in the rain as well, within reason.
I've commented to a few people who've asked why I would go out in the rain and I always tell them a wet hare is a smelly hare.

Of course the question with each of these factors is, how much is too much, or when is it not enough?

[alphaknl]

Most of my bobcat hunting experience has been on snow. The absolute worst conditions that I’ve experienced have been during a heavy melt out. Dogs act as though there is nothing there. It can be the only track in clean snow and they treat it like a deer track. Check it and move on. Walk the track out, have the cat stepping in my boot tracks and still notta. However, I’ve had others tell me of successful runs under the nearly identical circumstances. I probably need better dogs.

Ran a lion in similar melt out conditions and the dogs looked fair, but not at full stride behind a kitty that jumped out of the tree. Just one experience here...

Coon hunt at night during a heavy thaw, and the dogs look like worldbeaters most times, not a bark others. Hmmm? Never ran a bear on melting out snow.

Also, I’ve hunted with the dog that Budd mentioned, plus another that gentlemen bought that was raised and trained in Texas. Both close to worthless on the snow. Can’t take the cold and ineffective on track. BUT without the snow and extreme cold, they’re the dogs to pay attention to. Right or wrong.

A fresh wet snow, below freezing temps (but not frigid), with above average winter humidity has shown to be the most productive for me. Dogs have run bobcats start to finish like they're tied to it.

I can’t explain it, just what I’ve seen...Never paid much attention to a rising or falling barometer, but maybe should. Screw it, I’ll run the dogs when I can. If they look like junk, move on down the road and try again!