Stimulus Package Thoughts

[Big N' Blue]

It is the month of April, on the shores of the Black Sea. It is raining and the little town looks totally deserted. It is tough times, everybody is in debt and everybody lives on credit.

Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town.

He enters the only hotel, lays a 100 Euro note on the reception counter, and goes to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one.

The hotel proprietor takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the butcher.

The Butcher takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the pig grower.

The pig grower takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the supplier of his feed and fuel.

The supplier of feed and fuel takes the 100 Euro note and runs to pay his debt to the town's prostitute that in these hard times,gave her "services" on credit.

The hooker runs to the hotel and pays off her debt with the 100 Euro note to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when she brought her clients there.

The hotel proprietor then lays the 100 Euro note back on the counter.

At that moment,the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms and takes his 100 Euro
note,after saying that he did not like any of the rooms and leaves town.


No one earned anything. However,the whole town is now without debt and looks to the future with a lot of optimism..

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government under President BHO is doing business today.

At least the hooker and the hogs made out okay.

[pete richardson]

you forgot something- taxes-

by the time that 100 came back around it was prolly 10

[Doogie]

so what would be the right thing to do let all the business fail so no one had a job?
I dont like it any better than the next guy, but how else would of ANYONE prevented a TOTAL collapse of the American Ecomomy? once banks start failing everyone wonders if thier bank is going to be next and next thing you know theres a run on the banks to get your money out before its all gone, presto we are right back in 1929 again.

Would of McCain done the same thing? we'll never know

[Grzyadms4x4]

You make a good point doogie, and that is what we really need is a total collapse of our economic system so that we can implement a system that works as our model of economics is based on fairy tales, propaganda, and debt! Keynesian economics, the federal reserve, and banks/fractional reserve system are to blame for our economic mess. People made do just fine before them and we would get by just fine during any collapse and restructuring. Just my $.02.

Zach

[liontracker]

All businesses would not fail, only the ones who have been operating with financial irresponsibility. Capitalism is based on survival of the fittest. Not left wing meddling.
If they did fail, the successors would be that much stronger and better. Besides, in almost every case, the bail out money went to bonuses and/or padding the coffers before filing for bankruptcy anyway. The change we actually need is corporate and government reform. They are all in bed together and the average american has been paying the price. In the end, some of the things that happened in the last depression, as bad as they were, may be just what the doctor ordered in this case. Hell if they can't take the heat and clean up their act, maybe they will all jump out windows and do the rest of us honest americans a favor....Time for some genetic and economic cleansing anyway.

[Vance M.]

All businesses would not fail, only the ones who have been operating with financial irresponsibility. Capitalism is based on survival of the fittest. Not left wing meddling.
If they did fail, the successors would be that much stronger and better. Besides, in almost every case, the bail out money went to bonuses and/or padding the coffers before filing for bankruptcy anyway. The change we actually need is corporate and government reform. They are all in bed together and the average american has been paying the price. In the end, some of the things that happened in the last depression, as bad as they were, may be just what the doctor ordered in this case. Hell if they can't take the heat and clean up their act, maybe they will all jump out windows and do the rest of us honest americans a favor....Time for some genetic and economic cleansing anyway.

Well said

[loaded4bear]

All most everyone has it too easy. Borrough money that they can not pay back but live high on the hog for awhile and let someone esle pay for it. Don't pay taxes and then get a big reduction if you own over x amount of money, charge you card up and then bargin the pay off. The more I think about the more I would love to see 1929 again, or a time when the hand outs are all gone.

[Kevin D]

As someone that actually has a degree in economics, I can understand the need for a stimulus package to stave off an economic collapse. Any responsible government should step in and act in a counter cyclical manner to keep the economy afloat. But at the same time, I'm alarmed that the stimulus package is being hijacked to promote some left wing agenda. Auto bailouts where the government picks winners and losers, caps on executive pay, what is this chit?? The role of government in the economy should be to promote a healthy, competitive environment where businesses and free markets can flourish.........which means you have to let the losers fail. I just think we're drifting away from that model. If we've learned anything from the Soviet command stlye economy from the last century, it is that government micro-managing the economy is doomed to failure.

As to the idea that we should let the economy fail so we can start over again, I think that is a bad idea too. The purpose of any economic system is to provide and distribute goods and services to it's citizens. Complain all you want about our current system, but it has left us with the #1 economy in the world with a standard of living far exceeding where we were a century ago. Why anybody would want to ditch that to go back to a economic model based on 18th century philosophies is beyond me. We wouldn't want to go back to practicing 18th century medicine, why would 18th century economics be any different??

Nah, our system is bent but it is not broken. I might not agree with all the fixes currently being implemented, but I'm confident in the outcome.

$.02

[liontracker]

Confident in the outcome! You sir are one of the few. Hell, even Wall Street has no confidence. Please fill the rest of the country in on this miraculous outcome...

In your own words you say "let the losers fail". GM and AIG are losers. Did Obama let them fail? They are not the "economy". We can live without them. Besides, back in 2002 GM spent 7 billion dollars aquiring the GLOBAL patent rights on hydrogen fuel technology, (almost the bailout amount). Seems to me they overspent themselves and now we are covering for them.

Also, I did not in anyway imply 18th century philosophies,
although some good solid 20th century ones' are definately in order.

Here's some food for thought: Everyone in this country is acutely aware of the Governmental inefficiencies. What would the balance sheet look like, if we terminated employment, on 1/2 of all Govt. employees? We all know that the rest of them could pick up the slack and then maybe the rest would actually have to work 4-6 hrs for 8 hrs pay, instead of the 2-3 hrs they now work.

Also, the US Govt. owning GM smells alot like communism to me.
This administration has us right where they want us. They are now using the same techniques as the Humane Society. If we do not wake up as a people and reform this Govt., we will pay for it with our freedom...

I for one, anxiously await Obamas' self appointed militias' arrival at my doorstep....

In 1776 we showed the world what we were made of. The blood of those ancestors runs through our veins today. "Go ahead, make our day..."

[walkersrule]

no s#%t!
my opinion is as of most, and also i think that if when we went to war with someone they need to rebuild their own country after we destroy it with their own money. seems that they have enough natural resources to pay for them to do so. my .02!

[Big N' Blue]

Wow Tim!!! Great, did not realize you were so elequent!!! LOL

[Hi Tech]

I agree with Tim.... Obama filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes. How can we expected them to fix the current problem! They can't take care of their own. The more the goverment gets involved with making decisions the worse it will be for the country!!!

[Kevin D]

Confident in the outcome! You sir are one of the few. Hell, even Wall Street has no confidence. Please fill the rest of the country in on this miraculous outcome...

It's called the resilency of the American spirit liontracker, sorry if you've never heard of it. We've dealt with crisis before; the Great Depresion, WW II, Vietnam, 9/11, and we have always come out the otherside a stronger and smarter nation. This is the confidence of outcome I was talking about.

As for the rest of your post, don't confuse stimulus with bailouts, they are 2 separate issues. In my estimation, the should government act as a counter balance to help stabilize the economy in rare instances. But I'm against the government bailing out companies like AIG after they made foolish decisions, or the auto companies where bond holders are punished and the unions are favored. That reeks IMO.

The 18th century economic philosopies I was referring to was the return to the unbridled capitalism of the robber baron era, where markets and economic power were concentrated in the hands of a few. Free market economies work best when there are countless buyers and sellers and everyone has perfect information and equal access to the markets. Of course in the real world this doesn't happen. The ideal role of government in the economy IMO, should be to try to create an environment where free market conditions are simulated in those area where they might not otherwise be possible.

I'm not here to defend Obama's or Bush's policy decisions liontracker, I'm trying to look at the current crisis in a broader historical sense.

[liontracker]

Well, if it is a broader historical perspective you would like to look at, then look at this...


David Kaiser is a respected historian whose published works have covered a broad range of topics, from European Warfare to American League Baseball. Born in 1947, the son of a diplomat, Kaiser spent his childhood in three capital cities: Washington D.C. , Albany , New York , and Dakar , Senegal . He attended Harvard University , graduating there in 1969 with a B.A. in history. He then spent several years more at Harvard, gaining a PhD in history, which he obtained in 1976. He served in the Army Reserve from 1970 to 1976.

He is a professor in the Strategy and Policy Department of the United States Naval War Collegeand has previously taught at Carnegie Mellon, Williams College and Harvard University . Kaiser's latest book, The Road to Dallas, about the Kennedy assassination, was just published by Harvard University Press.


Dr. David Kaiser


History Unfolding

I am a student of history. Professionally, I have written 15 books on history that have been published in six languages, and I have studied history all my life. I have come to think there is something monumentally large afoot, and I do not believe it is simply a banking crisis, or a mortgage crisis, or a credit crisis. Yes these exist, but they are merely single facets on a very large gemstone that is only now coming into a sharper focus.

Something of historic proportions is happening. I can sense it because I know how it feels, smells, what it looks like, and how people react to it.. Yes, a perfect storm may be brewing, but there is something happening within our country that has been evolving for about ten to fifteen years. The pace has dramatically quickened in the past two.

We demand and then codify into law the requirement that our banks make massive loans to people we know they can never pay back? Why?

We learned just days ago that the Federal Reserve, which has little or no real oversight by anyone, has "loaned" two trillion dollars (that is $2,000,000,000,000) over the past few months, but will not tell us to whom or why or disclose the terms. That is our money. Yours and mine. And that is three times the $700 billion we all argued about so strenuously just this past September. Who has this money? Why do they have it? Why are the terms unavailable to us? Who asked for it? Who authorized it? I thought this was a government of "we the people," who loaned our powers to our elected leaders. Apparently not.

We have spent two or more decades intentionally de-industrializing our economy. Why?

We have intentionally dumbed down our schools, ignored our history, and no longer teach our founding documents, why we are exceptional, and why we are worth preserving. Students by and large cannot write, think critically, read, or articulate. Parents are not revolting, teachers are not picketing, school boards continue to back mediocrity. Why?

We have now established the precedent of protesting every close election (violently inCalifornia over a proposition that is so controversial that it simply wants marriage to remain defined as between one man and one woman. Did you ever think such a thing possible just a decade ago?) We have corrupted our sacred political process by allowing unelected judges to write laws that radically change our way of life, and then mainstream Marxist groups like ACORN and others to turn our voting system into a banana republic. To what purpose?

Now our mortgage industry is collapsing, housing prices are in free fall, major industries are failing, our banking system is on the verge of collapse, social security is nearly bankrupt, as is medicare and our entire government. Our education system is worse than a joke (I teach college and I know precisely what I am talking about) - the list is staggering in its length, breadth, and depth.. It is potentially 1929 x ten...And we are at war with an enemy we cannot even name for fear of offending people of the same religion, who, in turn, cannot wait to slit the throats of your children if they have the opportunity to do so.

And finally, we have elected a man that no one really knows anything about, who has never run so much as a Dairy Queen, let alone a town as big as Wasilla , Alaska . All of his associations and alliances are with real radicals in their chosen fields of employment, and everything we learn about him, drip by drip, is unsettling if not downright scary (Surely you have heard him speak about his idea to create and fund a mandatory civilian defense force stronger than our military for use inside our borders? No? Oh, of course. The media would never play that for you over and over and then demand he answer it. Sarah Palin's pregnant daughter and $150,000 wardrobe are more important.)

Mr. Obama's winning platform can be boiled down to one word: Change. Why?

I have never been so afraid for my country and for my children as I am now.

This man campaigned on bringing people together, something he has never, ever done in his professional life. In my assessment, Obama will divide us along philosophical lines, push us apart, and then try to realign the pieces into a new and different power structure.. Change is indeed coming. And when it comes, you will never see the same nation again.

And that is only the beginning..

As a serious student of history, I thought I would never come to experience what the ordinary, moral German must have felt in the mid-1930's In those times, the "savior" was a former smooth-talking rabble-rouser from the streets, about whom the average German knew next to nothing. What they should have known was that he was associated with groups that shouted, shoved, and pushed around people with whom they disagreed; he edged his way onto the political stage through great oratory. Conservative "losers" read it right now.

And there were the promises. Economic times were tough, people were losing jobs, and he was a great speaker. And he smiled and frowned and waved a lot. And people, even newspapers, were afraid to speak out for fear that his "brown shirts" would bully and beat them into submission. Which they did - regularly. And then, he was duly elected to office, while a full-throttled economic crisis bloomed at hand - the Great Depression. Slowly, but surely he seized the controls of government power, person by person, department by department, bureaucracy by bureaucracy. The children of German citizens were at first, encouraged to join a Youth Movement in his name where they were taught exactly what to think. Later, they were required to do so. No Jews of course,

How did he get people on his side? He did it by promising jobs to the jobless, money to the money-less, and rewards for the military-industrial complex. He did it by indoctrinating the children, advocating gun control, health care for all, better wages, better jobs, and promising to re-instill pride once again in the country, across Europe , and across the world. He did it with a compliant media - did you know that? And he did this all in the name of justice and .... . .. change. And the people surely got what they voted for.

If you think I am exaggerating, look it up. It's all there in the history books.

So read your history books. Many people of conscience objected in 1933 and were shouted down, called names, laughed at, and ridiculed. When Winston Churchill pointed out the obvious in the late 1930's while seated in the House of Lords in England (he was not yet Prime Minister), he was booed into his seat and called a crazy troublemaker. He was right, though. And the world came to regret that he was not listened to.

Do not forget that Germany was the most educated, the most cultured country in Europe . It was full of music, art, museums, hospitals, laboratories, and universities.. And yet, in less than six years (a shorter time span than just two terms of the U. S. presidency) it was rounding up its own citizens, killing others, abrogating its laws, turning children against parents, and neighbors against neighbors.. All with the best of intentions, of course. The road to Hell is paved with them.

As a practical thinker, one not overly prone to emotional decisions, I have a choice: I can either believe what the objective pieces of evidence tell me (even if they make me cringe with disgust); I can believe what history is shouting to me from across the chasm of seven decades; or I can hope I am wrong by closing my eyes, having another latte, and ignoring what is transpiring around me..

I choose to believe the evidence. No doubt some people will scoff at me, others laugh, or think I am foolish, naive, or both. To some degree, perhaps I am. But I have never been afraid to look people in the eye and tell them exactly what I believe-and why I believe it.

I pray I am wrong. I do not think I am. Perhaps the only hope is our vote in the next elections.

David Kaiser
Jamestown , Rhode Island
United States


What say ye ?

[Travis Stirek]

Comparing Obama to Hitler I may not agree with some of his economic policies,but one thing I do give him a BIG HELL YEAH! for is going back to Afghanistan and Pakistan where we never should have left until Osama Bin Laden was swinging from an oak tree.He even has ole Bin Laden pissed at him too.Had George Bush stayed the course and let America see Bin Laden hang(before going to Iraq),he would have went down as the most popular president of all time.