running to catch rahter then to chase

[beaglewalkerhunter4]

After reading about the july hounds, running to catch rather to chase, I have wondered how you could tell the difference. Is it a matter of drifting the track rather then being more concerned with the line of scent? or is it having more speed and less mouth? or perhaps all of this taken into account to make a hound that runs to catch. just a few thoughts what do you guys thinkk?

[NorWester]

Seems to me one has to set the definitions first. If your dogs run and catch what you/they are after.... is that not run to catch?

Some here are gonna disagree no doubt

[Dads dogboy]

BWH4,

Norwestr, pretty much says it all.

The point Mr. Dan and I were making to David is that there are Houndsmen with different styles and that have a different pupose! And there are different styles of Hounds that pursue the game they are chasing in different manners.

An example is the Field Trialing Coyote/Fox hunters who get minus pts and disqualified if their Hounds put their mouths on Game. Therefore these Hunters only want hounds that put on a good show giving mouth and as we say "aggravating" the varmit!

Those of us like Mr. Dan and my Dad want their Hounds to run their game to catch it. Dad, and I am sure Mr. Dan feels the same way, is that the intensity, tenacity, and commitment of the Hound that has been bred for this style is much stronger.

The further point was that there are Hounds of most breeds that fit different styles of hunting. Each breed has strains that have been bred for certain styles that fit different types of country and Hunter preferences.

Field trial bred Hounds weather of the Long or Short eared variety have different styles than Big Game Hounds or Hounds that are hunted outside and for pleasure.

Define the Game you want to pursue, what you want the Hounds to do to make you HAPPY, and analyze the terrain and habitat in which you are going to hunt. Then you can find someone who is breeding and hunting Hounds just like you are dreamng of!

Hope this Helps!

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[NorWester]

Dad, and I am sure Mr. Dan feels the same way, is that the intensity, tenacity, and commitment of the Hound that has been bred for this style is much stronger.

Much stronger than?

I think there are hounds with plenty of commitment that do not run to catch. The focus is just different. Their commitment is to the track itself, not the game at the end of it.

Each breed has strains that have been bred for certain styles that fit different types of country and Hunter preferences.

There's the real "catch" right there. There are types of country and terrain that are simply better suited to utilizing a run to catch style dog than others.
There are some parts where "run to catch" is just not a option ...... at least the majority of the time.

It was mentioned on another thread how rare it is for dogs to actually run down a red fox.
There are places where it is not rare at all. I've got plenty of video of packs in the British Isles running their game to catch. It's done very regularly.
What's the difference? A good part of it is the terrain and conditions, which in the UK are obviously favorable for the run to catch style.

However it's not like that everywhere I'm sure, as Mr. Edwards has pointed out.

I hear and read constantly of run to catch bred hare hounds. I've aquired a number of them.
Run to catch where they came from unfortunately doesn't equal run to catch here where I am.
Wish it did..... but so far, not so much

[cab]

May as well throw in my 2 centsworth. The terrain may favor the game, or favor the hound. True there are areas where catching is easier than in other areas. The terrain shouldn't have any effect upon the intentions of the hound in persuit. His mind set should be to get the fur in his mouth reqardless of what effort is required of him.
Being a bear hunter, there are many dogs that will run and tree a bear, but there are VERY few "bear" dogs. The mental toughness just isn't there when they suddenly face 400# of teeth and bad breath charging them with nothing but bad intentions. Many refuse to even leave the road again after being mauled just one time. A bear dog will still be looking for a chance to "hang a fang" on ole BoBo at every oppurtunity.

[Dads dogboy]

Norwester,

Thanks for keeping me thinking and on my toes to touch all bases on these posts!

The quote above ref. the term "this style of Hound being stronger" as implied means these straits being not as strong in other styles and strains of Hounds even of the same Breed!

Yes, in some Hounds the committment is to the scent found in the track itself. There are several great books about Blood Hounds and the fact that they could care less about the quarry, their interest was in the track. Montague Stevens speaks to this point quite eloquently in his book!

Now as to the statement about Fox Packs in the UK running Reds to ground. Friends of ours who have hunted extensivley with the Red Coated packs here and abroad are quick to point out that this is not the norm, it happens but not as consistantly with the Club packs as with the Farmer Packs. Also these friends stress that generally the Fox is jumped by the Horseback Hunters or the Hounds make the find when cast into coverts where the Fox is bedded so that the Race is "HOT" from the jump! And of course the countryside in the UK and the US where this type of Sport is played out is mostly open with small areas of cover, timber, or thickets.

Stateside our tradition has been to have the Hound locate the game,then start to tongue, thus giving the quarry the chance to get up and start to move out ahead of the Pack. This requires trailing, often for extended periods of time before the actual Race is under way giving the quarry the advantage in trying to elude the pursuing Pack.

Cab,

You captured the point and your example much better illustrates what I was trying to convey. Some Hounds are competant enough to do the job required, however they lack the tenacity to overcome adversity. This may be the Bear fighting, not immediately treeing or the Bobcat heading into a BAD, BAD Clearcut or SMZ waist deep in h2o, the Lion going into a rocky bluffs, the Coyote hitting some roads, Hare tripping along on waist deep powder snow(Norwester will have a better example). It takes that little "Something Extra" that not all Hounds have to close the deal.

Rambled too much!

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[briarpatch]

It is certainly true that some hounds, just like some people, are "driven to catch" more than others regardless of the obstacles.

briarpatch

[Dan Edwards]

I havent read the rest of this thread yet but I'd love to see them big ole 75 pound heavy boned hounds over there come here and catch these mature red fox. It aint gonna happen. They are pack hounds that "usually" run their fox to ground. Running it to ground and catchin it are two different things and them type hounds "DO NOT" run to catch. They are slow and methodical. Just look at them compared to the speed dogs I am talkin about.

[Big Mike]

A state cop budy of mine recently went to a school to be a canine handler. At this school they broke down a dogs drive into 3 or 4 catagories. I cant remeber all of them but 2 of them were prey drive and hunt drive. I found this very interesting and it realetes to the "run to catch". The hunt drive I relate to a dogs want to hunt and trail. I have owned and hunted with dogs that have tons of drive to hunt and trail but the catch wasnt there biggest concern. Prey drive is the want to catch and sink there teeth into the game, some might refer to this as the gritty hair pulling type of dogs.

Some lines show more hunt drive than others while some show more prey drive. Both drives are important and depending on the game and terrain you hunt one type of drive can be more important than the other.

A buddy of mine had the best examples of dogs with the prey drive " run to catch". He had some Plott dogs that were probably as good of bear dogs as there ever were. If you turned these dogs loose on a bear they were either going to catch the bear or die trying (which they all eventually did die trying) One died from exhaustion from being treed for three days until they found him with the bear treed, got him home and he died a few days later. He has a video of a big bear they run all day in the mountains, the dogs eventually ran the bear out of the mountains into the flats. When he caught up to them he filmed them while he was horse back. The bear would lay down from exhaustion and the dogs would lay down about 10 yards from the bear to tired to bark. They would rest a bit then a dog would get and go try and bite the bear. They all would get up and start walking to tired to run. The video is funny as hell the bear walking with three dogs walking behind him. These dogs had an unbelievable will to catch!!

[Mike Leonard]

A bunch of excellent stuff here. Obe Cory use to tell me about some ranchers he knew in Texas who kept July hounds to kill predators that got in their sheep and goats pastures. He said it didn't matter what it was if it was foregn they would catch and kill it. they ran to get ahold and kill they would drift. slash cut run to the head at all possible risk. Coyotes, cats, and one of the biggest problems they had feral or roving dogs. they would catch and kill them all the same. I had a big yellow July male that was given to me by a moutain packer who had got him to try him on lions. Well he got him trailing and catching feral cats and other critters but he never cared much about treeing. He had two half bluetick half australian shepherds hower that were great little tree dogs and he fianlly relaized the easy snow lion hunting he was doing they were all he really needed so he needed a home for the July. The big dog was real nice mannered and was neutered. I was hunting bear hard back then and kep about 30 dogs so I said sure i will give him a try. Well i was running my bear dogs 9-10 miles a night to keep them in shape and close to town we have a lot of wild dogs that roam the area breed and reproduce really wild dogs that can be really hard on livestock. Well occasionaly I would cross the tracks of one of them while running the hounds and old Rooster would let out a scream and the whole pack would be Adios! I never made it to the scene before they had them stretched and killed but one time and that was a battle they had two what looked like half pit bulls bayed up oner a sandstone cut bank. Well Rooster never even slowed down he dived in grab one right by the face and pull him out and the others would take ahold and that was it first one then the other end of the deal.He had no interest in setting there baying them he wanted them dead. Well I could see this was going to be pretty ugly on the first bayed bear so i let a guy near Albuqueque take him becasue he was needing another bear dog. Well he called me a couple of times and just thought I had rocks in my head for letting this dog go.Man he has grit like I have never seen bite a mean bear right in the face! Well a few weeks went by and no more phone calls then i finally called him. Well he said we got a bad bear bayed up tight and he was knocking the crap out of the dogs and Rooster never made the race but he came in to the fight and when he hit that bear i thought he weas going to roll him over but that bear swatted him or slung him I am not sure but the blood just shot out of his butt he nailed him so hard but he got up ran in one more time and the bear took him down and finsihed him thru the skull. He said that bear paid no attention to the other dogs after Rooster hit him the first time. So his brilliant carreer as a bear dog was glorious but pretty damn short.

[beaglewalkerhunter4]

mike, incrediable story! I think there are whole bunch of good points here.I think dan touched upon the speed factor, as well as dogs that run their fox to ground, now is this because they are to slow,and are they too slow because they don't drift the track? or is not drifting the track what makes them slow

If your dogs run and catch what you/they are after.... is that not run to catch?

norwestor, IMO if that consistentely happends then yes it certainly is running to catch. ..keep your thoughts comin these are all good reads

[NorWester]

Dad's Dogboy wrote,

Now as to the statement about Fox Packs in the UK running Reds to ground. Friends of ours who have hunted extensivley with the Red Coated packs here and abroad are quick to point out that this is not the norm, it happens but not as consistantly with the Club packs as with the Farmer Packs. Also these friends stress that generally the Fox is jumped by the Horseback Hunters or the Hounds make the find when cast into coverts where the Fox is bedded so that the Race is "HOT" from the jump! And of course the countryside in the UK and the US where this type of Sport is played out is mostly open with small areas of cover, timber, or thickets.

You're reference to the horse back hunters holds true from what I understand in the south of England. It is not their desire to catch the fox so much as it is to enjoy a nice outing with the hounds and horses.
However there are a good many packs to the north as in the fells of North Cumbria where horses are not used and in fact cannot manage the terrain. The huntsmen are on foot, and the hounds lift the fox and run him down.
Certainly there are fox run to ground, but a good number are caught above ground on the run.

Dan Edwards wrote,

I havent read the rest of this thread yet but I'd love to see them big ole 75 pound heavy boned hounds over there come here and catch these mature red fox. It aint gonna happen. They are pack hounds that "usually" run their fox to ground. Running it to ground and catchin it are two different things and them type hounds "DO NOT" run to catch. They are slow and methodical. Just look at them compared to the speed dogs I am talkin about

Dan I've got about 8 plus hours of video from overseas of various fell packs running to catch.....not to ground. I can't imagine these videos are the only evidence of such taking place.
You're comment about their dogs coming here to catch a mature red fox illustrates exactly my point about conditions and terrain.
It would be interesting to see how it would work with the shoe on the other foot so to speak, with the smaller speed demons going over there and having a crack at their fox, on their turf under their conditions

Big Mike wrote,

Some lines show more hunt drive than others while some show more prey drive. Both drives are important and depending on the game and terrain you hunt one type of drive can be more important than the other

I absolutely agree. Now the real challenge is getting the proper blend all into one dog!
There are some places, conditions where a hound is coursing it's game, becoming more sight hound than scent.
Then again, different terrain and conditions may require that track straddler who's sole obsession is the track as that's the only way to keep it moving.
Now it gets real interesting when each of the aformentioned conditions and terrain in which both types are at times suitable for.....is the same place
One day its a like a sight chase and your wind splitting speed demon can do no wrong, 24 hrs later the same dog couldn't run to catch a hamburger in a phone booth.
Up steps Mr.Track Straddler to remind you why you ever fed him in the first place

Is it possible to get the best of both worlds in the same dog?

Is it possible that such a dog would be able to perform at it's best, anywhere under any conditions at any time?
I'm guessin there are a boat load of fellows who want to believe they have such an animal but my money is on that being more wishful thinking than anything else

[Dads dogboy]

Norwester,

Get Mr. Bens book "Never Out Foxed: in Full Cry"! He has been there and done that!
In fact lots of UK packs now have more than a smattering of the "Hardaway Crossbred" blood in their packs.

Mr. Ben used some UK Hounds in his early work. Without pulling the Book out I am sure he used some of the "Fell" blood but I am not sure which Club other than the Waterford & Cotswald(sp) Valley Packs he drafted from. I know that in later years he has been a proponent of Irish Hounds from Farm type Foot Packs of Northern Ireland, using a Harrier class of Hound as these were more "Run to Catch" type Hounds.

Over seas whether in the UK, the Continent, Asia, South America, or Australia, just it like here, it boils down to "Purpose" and the type of Terrain/Conditions(snow, dry ground, etc) as to the type of Hound a Hunter needs.

Then the old "Scenting Conditions" come into play causing those days when a Hound with the brains of Einstein, speed of Carl Lewis, nose of Durante, and the stamina of Frank Shorter to look like a lap Dog!

These discusions just get better and better!

Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[Dan Edwards]

I have 3 friends that "own" fell packs and I can assure you we have talked and I know what I am sayin. I also have a friend that onws one of the Welsh packs, we have also talked. Propaganda, pictures and videos aint gonna tell you what these gents have told me. Lets just put it this way, the word "tradition" was used alot if theat means anything to you.

[Dan Edwards]

I absolutely agree. Now the real challenge is getting the proper blend all into one dog!
There are some places, conditions where a hound is coursing it's game, becoming more sight hound than scent.
Then again, different terrain and conditions may require that track straddler who's sole obsession is the track as that's the only way to keep it moving.
Now it gets real interesting when each of the aformentioned conditions and terrain in which both types are at times suitable for.....is the same place
One day its a like a sight chase and your wind splitting speed demon can do no wrong, 24 hrs later the same dog couldn't run to catch a hamburger in a phone booth.
Up steps Mr.Track Straddler to remind you why you ever fed him in the first place

Is it possible to get the best of both worlds in the same dog?

Is it possible that such a dog would be able to perform at it's best, anywhere under any conditions at any time?
I'm guessin there are a boat load of fellows who want to believe they have such an animal but my money is on that being more wishful thinking than anything else


I'll just say this, that when conditions are good here the fast dogs will catch all the coyotes in front of the track straddlers with ease. When the conditions are bad here aint gonna be alot of coyotes caught if you catch one at all BUT......what I do know for absolute certainty is that Mr. Track Straddler most definately aint gonna catch one. I might not have much of a race with my head high get to where the coyote is goin type dog but I might accidentally cut one off acnd catch him. Track Straddler will really look stupid on them days cause he will never be at the catch. As a matter of fact he will be miles from it.