American Blue Gascons

[lmorgan]

There has been quite a bit of conversation lately about the French Gascons that liontracker and African are working with. Certainly there is nothing wrong with that and I applaud their efforts. However, just in case there was anyone new lurking in this particular forum, I thought that I'd mention that there is a huge difference between the European old blooded Gascongnes and the American Blue Gascon Hound. The American Blue Gascon Hound in it's current configuration probably has no more direct relationship to the French hounds than any other American breed of coonhound. For that reason, many, if not most, American Gascon fanciers prefer to call their hounds "Old Fashioned Blueticks" or simply "Big Blues". However, the American Gascon does seem to more closely carry many of the old country traits that are commonly associated with the European stock of hounds. They tend to have colder noses, longer ears, and larger size than any of the common American Coonhound breeds. For that reason, the name American Blue Gascon Hound was chosen as a name for the breed to differentiate it from the other strains of Bluetick coonhounds. The name certainly wasn't the perfect choice because it does pay more homage to the French hounds than is deserved, but there are also many strains of Blueticks today that are closely related to old lines of hounds that share none of the size, voice, or scenting characteristics. Simply put, there were as many "old fashioned" blueticks in the 19th and 20th centuries that were small, short eared, hot nosed and chop mouthed. For the people who prefer that kind of hound, they are no less "old fashioned" than our Gascons of today. But they ARE very different hounds.

I hope this clarifies the difference in the fine French hounds that liontracker and African are using from the American Blue Gascons that this forum is largely devoted to.

Don't forget to check out the ABGHA website, either. http://www.abgha.org

[Whinecountryhounds]

thanks for posting that, interesting and informative.

[Mike Leonard]

GREAT INFORMATION LARRY!


Say what do you think of my American White Gascon (Big Ben)? LOL!

[liontracker]

Good stuff Larry!

"The American Blue Gascon Hound in it's current configuration probably has no more direct relationship to the French hounds than any other American breed of coonhound."

Except that: Through the very extensive and expensive reasearch I had done, I had reason to believe that there was two strains in the US that had a large concentration of French blood in them, and I'm not talking Grande Bleu de Gascogne either. The pics I have of these old hounds was all I had to go on... then came the new Bill Green CD's. In the opening scene Bill opened the door on his male pen and there were 3 White Gascon males in there... I almost had a heart attack! What I had thought all these years was validated, and I was already one year ahead of things with my new GS imports. To top it off, those two males appear to be from a similar strain as my females.( Have you watched these CD's?) Some of the Bill's pups from these crosses went to Harry O. Smith of the Sugar Creek kennels. He wrote in a magazine that this blood was what really turned the corner in his breeding program. as near as I can tell though, this cross was 12 generations back in my old SC female.

The other strain is the Goswick hound, although they may have more Porcelaine blood than GS. The physical characteristics are too strong to deny.

So I believe that these two strains in particular, have a higher concentration of "French" blood in them than all others, and it was by far, more recent than the founding French blood in the rest of the Blueticks. Because it is so far back, it would be of almost no use to a breeder...unless he was to inject some new high quality "French" blood in there.

[Brady Davis]

Hmmmm....wheels a turnin'

[blueticker78]

First you have some good points about the differences, well put. I do have some food for thought though, the hounds we enjoy are of the big old fashioned type, ie cold nosed methodical lots of drive and hound looking in appearence, in reality we owe much more credit to the french hounds then any other breed used to develope our paticular type of dog. Yes our dogs are american made and we created some fine hounds some of the best especially for hunting big game, but we get a little protective sometimes and want to deny some of our dogs heritages, and I think that the grande bleu and gs has suffered a little in getting there fair share of reconition for creating the modern old fashioned bluetick, I just hope that we are all on the same page about what we want to preserve in these hounds, because otherwise they may be lost forever in our near future, and I think that with some hunting and close attention to genetics we could possibly use some new french blood in our hounds. Just some food for thought, and thank you Tim for bringing to light some of the modern french blood that was used in Developing our hounds. Blueticker78

[liontracker]

Something else to think about were the two French Grand Bleu de Gascogne's imported in the 70's - Spartan and Marengo. Certainly of the 100 bitches bred to them there are decendants alive today carrying their blood. A lot of guys say these two studs poluted the gene pool, but not all agree. One man in particular, an oldtime breeder, told me " if I could find the same today, I would by a whole truck load".

See S.Morrows post: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5151

[blueticker78]

I dont think they polluted the gene pool at all, I have had this argument with several old timers and they say that these hounds didnt have the strong treeing instinct,and that they erased alot of years of this trait built into the american blue gascon, I have to disagree, from my view I think the grande bleu has given our modern hounds more of the desired traits then anything else, nose, hound appearence and type, color, size, determination, a work ethic thats uncanny, I also believe that if a strain of hounds comes from a background of being used to bay game you can teach them to tree fairly easy, and they will naturally learn to locate from there desire to catch game, I think with anything there was some mixed emotions about these crosses, maybe even some envy, but I think given the right oppurtunity these hounds would have only bettered the American blue gascon, I dont think that anyone can ohnestly say that the American blue gascon does not or is not built from the french type gascognes and that they cant directly trace there foundation to them, or that any other strain of hound or breed carries as much french blood as the American blue gascon if this was true then why the seperation in the first place? We made this seperation to preserve a type of hound for what it is and the blood lines and traits it carries, thats the bottom line, and I think we owe these hounds the dedication of preserving them for what they are and what they have given to us as hunters, and if that means some new introduction of french blood that will better the breed then why not, after all thats where it all began and thats the type of dog that we choose to hunt and better for the future generations of American blue gascon houndsmen. A Grande Bleu is a superior type hound, and he is a superior reproducer not because he has a little of what we need or prefer in a hound but because he has it all, some chose to throw this or that in there for different reasons but the basis started with the Grande bleu because of what he already brought to the woods.

[liontracker]

From what I see, the big blue breeders were handed a gift, in the blood they had back in the day. However, over time it was squandered away and now there is only a very small handful of lines in existance today that can compare.

[liontracker]

BT78,

Go to the above post and click on the pic I added. When it comes up, click on it again.
Read the story and look at the pic. This is an example of what you are talking about.

[Majestic Tree Hound]

Between 9 and 13 Sec. into this Clip from Bill Greens films (Avb. From John Green and Bow)

Their is a Pure French Blue .. Bill Green Had "The French Connection" then to Smokey River, Sugar Creek and some English lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdcGYq-hiMk

Jean Luc in the Photos below had never been trained to Tree he has a naterial desire to finish a track weather treed or bayed .. Jean got away from his owners while on vacation in Wyo. and treed a bear, when they found him he was treeing his heart out.

Jean's Owners said he's always treeing Squirrels in the yard.

[liontracker]

I don't know Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but the rich mahogany trim is not typical coloration of the pure Grand Bleus I have seen. But that light colored Blue looks a lot like Scout or the other one everyone is confusing with Scout?

Too bad that Jean Luc doesn't have better ears.

[Majestic Tree Hound]

I'am looking alittle less at the Coloration and more at the Conformation. The very low Stop, overall head deep chest .. I don't know maybe I'am reading the hound the wrong way. Maybe its is a cross of the GGS and just kicked out as a Grand Blue..

I think I can Fix Jean Luc's Ears !! LOL

But your right they are Shorties !!

[Lynxhunter]

Any of you guys, who's got all this knowledge, know anything about the hound seen from 0.29-0.52 in the clip? Insanely good looking if you ask me. - Large frame with long leggs without to much weight to drag around.

Hans

[liontracker]

Damn Hans, hell of an eye! That is what I believe is a Bluetick x Gascon Saintongeios cross. Most guys think this is Bill's Scout dog, but I see different markings from Scouts'.
I have a pair of littermate Bluetick males that go back to Bill's top dogs and a pair of extra nice GS females, so we will see.