breeding with genetics in mind

[Ike]

Lots of good stuff guys, keep them coming!

http://www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com/inbreeding.html

INBREEDING: What? Why? and How?
by Ky W. White
The Chase Magazine
September, 1994
Page twenty-four and twenty-five

Everyone has an opinion on breeding. There are as many divergent opinions on how an animal should be bred as there are breeders. I have heard many very
successful people say that they never inbreed, others say they never outcross. These opinions are literally poles apart. Never the twain shall meet.

I have heard it spoken, only half in jest that if it works, it is linebreeding and if it doesn't it is inbreeding! If there is a principle misunderstood by even those who
advocate its use - it is inbreeding.

Inbreeding is the mating of closely related animals to one another. Closely related, here, means parent-offspring, full-siblings, half-siblings, aunt-nephew, or
uncle-niece. For this discussion, if the two parents are related, but not this closely we will define it as linebreeding rather than inbreeding.

Now that we have defined what it is, WHY DO IT?

Inbreeding is done for a variety of reasons, but two very valid reasons come immediately to mind. First, is to find and identify weaknesses (faults in structure,
conformation, temperament, etc., or poor recessive genes) that may be masked and transferred to another generation of puppies. Second, is to concentrate the
genes of one very good dog.

Every trait that a mammal has is inherited in duplicate. We, and our dogs, get a gene for every trait from each of our parents. Our dogs will show one trait
that is more like one parent and another trait that is more like the other parent. One parent is dominant for one trait and the other parent would be dominant for
the second trait. For example, this explains why a puppy can have the head of one parent and the body of the other.

The trait that is exhibited, or that we can see, is referred to as being dominant. The trait that is not exhibited is referred to as being recessive. However, the dog
can pass on the recessive traits as easily as it can the dominant ones. This is where a lot of surprises come from. This iss the simplest of cases. Many traits
are a combination of more than one gene, sometimes far more than one. The technical term for this is "polygenic." Each of the genes that contribute to the
trait or characteristic can be inherited from either parent.

By breeding animals that have many of the same genes in common, we can remove many of the variables or possibilities that otherwise might surprise us. In
order to breed animals with as many genes in common as possible, you must start with closely related breeding stock.

Since many of the gene combinations will be duplicated, we will find that many of the recessive traits will be revealed; revealed-not caused. This is a very,
very important distinction to make. The recessive genes which may be faults will be unmasked because they will have been duplicated from both the sire and
the dam. However, the good traits will also have been inherited in duplicate. If we can find the puppy with the good traits that we are seeking from an
inbreeding, then we can be fairly confident that the good traits are there in duplicate. We will have a puppy that is plenipotent for the good traits.

The bad side to this coin is that we may also have puppies that have the faults in duplicate and they must be culled from the breeding pool. They must be
neutered and not allowed to reproduce. For this reason, inbreeding is not a plan for the faint of heart.

A puppy receives half of its genes from each parent, 25% from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great-grandparent, etc. If we breed a dog to his daughter,
the resulting puppies will receive 50% of their genes from their sire. Their dam is already 50% of the sire, so the puppies will have 75% of their genes
contributed by their father who is also their grandfather. This makes them actually more related to their sire than their dam, who is also their half-sister. If one
of these second generation bitches is bred back to the same sire, he would then be contributing 87.5% of the genetic makeup of that litter of pups.

When the Santa Gertrudis breed of cattle was being developed in South Texas, the ideal bull was developed. He was bred to his daughter and to her daughter
and to her daughter for six successive generations to set the breed type. Finally, the last generation produced a cow that had 127/128ths of its genetic material
donated by the original bull. This is as close to cloning the ideal animal as we can come.

Problems? The Santa Gertrudis is one of the hardiest and largest of all breeds of cattle. Descendant cattle were just as big and had the same temperament as the
original stock. There was no loss of size or of good temperaments resulting from this type of concentrated inbreeding. Since you are not introducing any new
genes, but simply recombining the same genes into new combinations, this method cannot cause faults. It will, however, allow you to identify them and then
remove them from the existing breeding stock.

This brings to mind a second notion that I have often heard. I hear people tell how many different times a kennel name appears in a pedigree and they consider
that a sign of inbreeding or line breeding. If you elect to inbreed, you must select a dog upon which to concentrate your efforts, not a kennel.

It is not possible to inbreed to two or three dogs simultaneously. Just because a dog carries a kennel name in its pedigree several times does not mean that it has
been linebred or inbred. I have heard some people tout their dogs as being of a certain line or kennel because of one of it's great-grandparents. All that tells me
is that 7/8 of the dog's genes came from somewhere else.

I know of some dogs that are not any closer related to a prominent stud dog than seven generations, or a great-great-great-great-great-grandparent. A dog in
that generation is only one of 128 ancestors in the 7th generation. Yet, due to the inbreeding and the many times that the dog appeared in the puppy's pedigree in
the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th generations, he still accounted for 28% of the genetic makeup of the puppy. With inbreeding , a dog can still have a significant impact
upon the breeding, long after it has passed away. Someone with a dominant, ideal stud dog should consider inbreeding to save as much of his genes as possible
for future generations. You may have a dog that meets your ideal of the breed standard or you may be able to find the dog that you think most closely matches
the standard and breed to it.

How do you plan a program to reproduce that dog? First, study the pedigrees of some of our best dogs and you will be able to use this pedigree as a blueprint to
follow. Second, breed a bitch to this "ideal" dog. Hopefully, the bitch will have some common ancestry. Third, take the best bitch puppy of the resulting litter
that does not have faults in common with the sire and breed her back to her father/grandfather. You should then get puppies in this second generation that are
75% of the sire and have very few faults in common with their sire. Our dogs do not often live long enough to breed those puppies back to the sire again.
From here you must search out a sibling or half-sibling that, again, does not have any common faults and breed them. This will keep the genetic makeup of the
original sire well over 50% in any puppies that you produce and you will be able to see this dog's good qualities repeated over and over again.

Outcrossing should be done judiciously, as you are reintroducing many variables. You may get some outstanding puppies; you may also be masking some
recessives that will not crop again for several generations.

One good pedigree that I have seen and studied took a half-brother/half-sister cross and produced two dogs and a bitch. The bitch was bred to one of her
littermates and produced a bitch puppy. This second generation bitch puppy was then bred back to her double uncle, the littermate of both of her parents.
There are several instances of this type of breeding, or a slight variation of it, in all the prominent lines in the breed. This breeds success, if done with study
and the fortitude to neuter the undesireable ones.

I realize that many will see an article on inbreeding and think of taboos and that it is a program that can be disastrous. Any breeding program will breed
mediocrity, if it is done haphazardly without thought, training and study.

Patience is the key. No breeding program is going to turn out the ultimate dog after only one generation, unless you are very, very fortunate. What you should
see, though, is a consistent improvement generation to generation. With inbreeding, you should also see uniformity and consistency within a litter. Often, you
will see more uniformity from an inbred litter than one from another type of breeding simply because there are fewer variables introduced in the genetic makeup
of the puppies. As with any breeding program, you must ensure that the uniformity you seek is of high quality rather than just the average. Breeding average
dogs should not be anyone's goal.

Ky. W. White is the son of the late Hop White of Cowtown Kennel. He has been actively involved in breeding, pedigrees, and showing all of his life. He is a
1976 graduate of the US Military Academy at West Point. He has had numerous articles published in Military Journals, Engineering publications, and different
dog breed magazines.

[Ike]

http://www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com/ ... aults.html

The Chase Magazine
March 1944, Page Seven

On Breeding Out The Faults
By John Thomas Benbow
Major, M.C.

I have read with interest what our dearly beloved foxhunter, Mr. Hewitt Meriwether, of Jackson,
Tenn., has to say in regard to breeding out the faults in our foxhounds. I would like to add this to
what he had to say. If you mate two babblers, their offspring will have that one habit multiplied
within them, ten times as great as either of their parents. This is true with any bad trait. All bad
traits, provided that both parents possess the same bad trait, will be multiplied ten times in their
offspring. Then, on the other hand, if we mate two hounds with the same outstanding good
qualities, that good quality is also multiplied in the pups, but not always ten times as strong as
their parents possessed. But occasionally it will be multiplied ten times as strong, or rather it will
be ten times as hard to eliminate that one good quality in their offspring by reckless breeding.

I thoroughly agree with what Mr. Meriwether says. But life is just too short to ever accomplish
anything along that line. Our great-grandchildren might not know exactly which bad traits we
were trying to eliminate by the time the hounds get in their possession. The best way to eliminate
faults is to select two game, level-headed hounds that possess the same good outstanding
qualities. Never breed to anything that is not game no matter how many good qualities he or she
may have. Mate these two foxhounds that have the same good traits. By so doing you will get
some pups that will possess that one good trait so strong that it will take a long time to breed it
out by reckless breeding. This litter might not be exactly what you want, but they all will have
plenty of the same good that existed in both parents. Some of this litter are more apt to have
some other good trait. If so, look about and mate it to some game hound that possesses that
same good trait; taking into consideration that this hound is not weak on that one good trait that
you have multiplied in your first breeding. This hound does not have to be strong or outstanding
on this first trait. But he should not be weak on it, as he might retract some of the good trait that
you are striving for. Some of this second litter will have multiplied within them two traits which will
take some time to breed out even if one should try. Take one or two of this last litter, examine and
observe them, and see what other good trait might be strong in them. You are more than apt to
find at least one of this litter that is outstanding in some good quality other than what you have
been breeding for. If so, get busy and find another game hound which is strong on this third
outstanding quality. Mate them, provided this new hound is not weak on what you have multiplied
in your hounds by previous breeding. Then remember that by producing three strong
outstanding good qualities from them. Search and observe this litter carefully and see if you can’t
find, in addition to the three good traits, one or two pups in this litter which not only have three
good traits multiplied within them to the extent that reckless breeding will take some time to
eliminate, but which has a fourth desirable quality. Then be sure to mate this one with a game
hound with an outstanding good quality that is the same as your pups show a little of. By so
doing you have multiplied this fourth good quality, and also automatically eliminated a fourth bad
quality. Keep this up until you have eliminated all the bad traits possible. Then you will have quite
a few hounds that should be hung up by the heels, and have their throats cut. But a greater
percent of your hounds will be outstanding provided they are given the proper training, and not
run when they are not right. A hound can’t tell his master or trainer that he has a pain in his side,
or that he has a fever. We sometimes expect too much of a hound that is sick.

[TomJr]

I am not a breeder but just thought I would toss this into the mix.

Gentics is a very complex thing and we are learning that its even more complex than we thought with the epigenome. Turns out that there are tags that turn on and off genes on the DNA that can be affected by environment. What a mother eats and is exposed to while pregnat can change the epigenome enough to produce totaly differant looking offspring that are twins genticly.

The research is still fairly new but very interesting http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html

I also was watching a program on TV and they showed with rats that how a mother interacts with her newborns can change thier epigenome. So that made me think about pups in early development durning those first few days can likly make a huge differance. That Bio-feedback thing with handleing pups likly affects this...



This is a link explaining what the epigenome is http://www.genome.gov/27532724

[Eric Muff]

wow deep reading.
There are several religious communities about these parts and they like to stick to their own and therefore have created their own line breeding program.A friend is anurse at the Childrens Hospital and says the number of sick line bred kids outways those of random breedings 100 to 1 with everything from Cancer to MS.
Makes me wonder about it all,what would we be with out controlling those offspring,thats gotta be the key to being successful at it regardless of the cross until you get to where you can predict sucess.
Man what a tall order.

[Mr.pacojack]

This is some good stuff. It is real cool to see different articals and books and they all pretty much tell the same story.
Ankle Express. Just one thing It is not my methode. I just try to learn as much as I can, from others, but it doesn't seem to work for me ,I still come up with these junk yard dogs of mine.

[high desert hounds]

Ike thanks for the read your first post made a ton of sense. Now that we are getting a sense of line breeding and inbreeding. Explain to me how we pic the right stud dog once we have chosen a line. I am going to use topper and sampson as examples only because we hear so much about them. Why do they produce so many dogs that are better than they are. Can't all be the female. We know that both topper and sampson have huge holes in them, yet thier offspring are some of the elite in the sport. Could we make an educated guess just by looking at papers? Unless you hunt with the dog everyday it would be a crap shoot. either you take a mans word or you look at his breeding. Just kicking around some ideas. Thanks for all the input and links.
James G. Moore

[Mr.pacojack]

James, here is my oppinion on that. If you take an offspring with "Huge holes", as you put it, You are almost certian to have those recessive genes come bite you in the butt down the line. And I think from talking to you, that you are talking about problems like feet and fighting and treeing or lack of it. If You are trying to keep this blood up close, which I think is your plan, you are going to have to line or inbreed, then you are just doubling up on good and bad traits.
Dogs that are passing on or have "Huge Holes" should never have been used as breeding stock. No dog is perfect but we need to be breeding dogs that have Proven their hunting ablity and are as perfect as we can live with.
Huge holes are often passed on because that dog(s) are the last of the blood up close and people compromise doing what is right for good blood.

[coleman]

I think everybody has different opinions on breeding and what a good dog is. Onstott's book is being used a reference here, and alot of good breeders have used it as a guideline, or at least somewhere to get started.

The ideal way of doing things would be to take 2 great(perfect) dogs within the same great family with a proven history of great dogs and breed them. But let's face it,...at least up here in this part of Canada all of our dogs aren't perfect. So what do we do now??? If you read Onstott's book his advice would be to breed to a good dog from a strong line of dogs, rather than a great dog from a questionable line of dogs.

I think this Catch fellow might be on to something,...even though it sounds like he is a plott man. Most dogs are going to have a few weaknesses,...whether or not their owners want to admit it. I'd be willing to bet that the greatest dog you have ever seen was better than both his parents, and that the greatest dogs out there aren't producing huge litters of all perfect dogs, or any as good as them for that matter. And if they are, I'd sure like to come and see them hunt, cause my opinion of what a perfect dog is and yours might be a little different. If they are all great, then I'll buy them all from you and get rid of my mangy potlickers.

[high desert hounds]

Devin, you bring up an interesting question. Can you take a dog with great trates and some holes and breed them up? My second question will those holes become dominant later on. And how long can a guy stay tight before he has to out cross?

[Mr.pacojack]

Can you take a dog with great trates and some holes and breed them up?

Of coarse you can. There is no dogs without holes. But a dog with "Huge Holes" like you stated before should be not used.

My second question will those holes become dominant later on.

You might want to ask one of these other guys that have more knowedge than me.Which is pretty much everyone. But I think if you if you take 2 dogs with simular traits that come from a long line of dogs producing the same traits, you will be building on them, and if you have some hugh bad traits then expect them to come up.

And how long can a guy stay tight before he has to out cross?

I would guess to say longer than You and I will ever live. i think that is why they went to breeding Mice and flies, so they could speed up the work and see the out come that would take so long.
JMO

[Catch]

Can you take a dog with great trates and some holes and breed them up?

Of coarse you can. There is no dogs without holes. But a dog with "Huge Holes" like you stated before should be not used.

My second question will those holes become dominant later on.

You might want to ask one of these other guys that have more knowedge than me.Which is pretty much everyone. But I think if you if you take 2 dogs with simular traits that come from a long line of dogs producing the same traits, you will be building on them, and if you have some hugh bad traits then expect them to come up.

And how long can a guy stay tight before he has to out cross?

I would guess to say longer than You and I will ever live. i think that is why they went to breeding Mice and flies, so they could speed up the work and see the out come that would take so long.
JMO

Now I have a few questions.
How are you going to breed up those dog with a few problems? In one of your past posts you stated that one shouldn't mask faults.

How long can one breed tight? Well, what is tight? If you had a male and female from the same family and started a breeding program from those two dogs. In just a few generations your breeding program will be over. If one inbreeds on a family of dogs. The game will be over soon. Like I have said, if you start inbreeding you better have 50 dogs in your program. No matter how smart of a breeder one thinks he is, mother nature will not allow you to get so few genes without problems.

[Catch]

Well Mr. PacoJack has spoke the gospel! I haven't read any books about breeding dogs but my experiences or experiments have shown me he is correct. Traits get watered down after each breeding, period. Only way, only chance of improving those desired traits is compound upon them. Linebreeding, breeding closely as possible in a certain gene pool with dogs that exhibit the exact same desired traits. Here's the kicker you can't compromise a trait or its watered down after. So perfection or darn near it has to be obtained and then compounded. To see it over and over again for generations. The old saying "best to best" is meant to mean the same thing (best similar desired traits you can find blended) just without the linebreeding. Linebreeding just doubling your odds. Aligned traits and aligned genes, should be about the same product.
Which is probably how breed specific registry's were started?

Now you can still take those "best to best" hybrid vigor lightning strikes and with one or two close breedings establish a gene pool to linebreed out of and maybe keep your head above water for a while. As long as the desired traits are never compromised. Standards being the same similar outcrosses can be made and again maybe keep your head above water. Compound it again. Maybe. You aren't helping a specific breed then usually because color isn't considered.


Fact is most of us will be the latter bunch. We could have better odds of being in the same bunch if the folks at the forefront of the breeds followed Pacojacks methods. Trying to cover or add one trait from another is BS. You'll end up with several that have the undesired and desired traits in sometimes usable/coachable but frustrating ways at best. Typically not usable. Might have the one super hero. Typically its all that was desired minus one of the major desired. 2+2 does not equal 4 in dog breeding. The right 2+2 might give another 2 though, if you know what you got and how to use it. Should be a line thats producing.

Really. Tell me why people breed blood hound into their dogs? Tell me why people breed pits or airedale into thier hounds? It is to "add" the dominate trait like nose or grit into a dog that lacks it.

[Ike]

I've always wondered why anybody would breed a big game hound into a bloodhound or an airedale or pit bull, cause the results could be a bunch of culls. I read a book one time and the writer warned against those type of crosses, stating that the breeder took the chance in producing offspring that didn't have any hunting drive or were not game hungry.

If he was correct, then a breeder takes the chance of only getting the fighting aspect from the airedale or pit bull and not getting the trailing, treeing and track driving traits that are so needed in a trail hound. Now those were his arguments and not mine, but common sense would tell me that those are real concerns when outcrossing to bring in grit or nose. Likewise, bloodhounds were bred to trail people not game. And although a bloodhound may well throw a better nose into offspring with a lion or bear hound it may lesson the desire traits of big game hound, like trailing, sticking to a track and treeing.

Just more food for thought...........

ike

[TomJr]

Ike wrote:

I've always wondered why anybody would breed a big game hound into a bloodhound or an airedale or pit bull, cause the results could be a bunch of culls. I read a book one time and the writer warned against those type of crosses, stating that the breeder took the chance in producing offspring that didn't have any hunting drive or were not game hungry.

I have never seen a dog that didn't have atleast some hunting instint. Before my last dog I just used any old stray that wandered into my property. Granted I did choose only those that could run well mostly with some lab and they all turned out ok. Some were better than others but they all caught plenty of critters.

From my experiance alot of what makes a dog a decent hunting dog is exposure to game at an early age. I also mainly took in younger dogs under a year old and it seemed like the younger I got them the better they turned out regardless of breed. My dogs don't spend most of thier time in a kennle but instead are allowed the run of a 10 acre orchard and as a result they are exposed to all types of critters 24/7. Its fun watching a 1-2 month old pup catch his first cotten rat.

I am not a guide ect so its no big deal if they catch some off game, about the only thing I break them off is Deer and domestic animals. That being said I rarly have an older dog go after rats, squirls or rabbits while away from the orchard, they seem to just know that if we are off property its time to hunt bigger game.

[Ike]

So can you start one of those dogs on an old lion track and have them trail it for ten or twenty hours and catch that lion? Just curious cause if you can all these other guys that are breeding hounds are wasting their time........

ike