Colorado '08-'09 Tooth Age Data

[liontracker]

http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyre ... mation.pdf

According to the Lab, mine was 3-4 years old.
It scored 15 1/16 B&C.
Has anyone ever heard of one that young scoring over 15 inches?

That is a Statewide average of 2.72 years old.
Because the Lion population in Colorado is in such an expansion mode,
I have to believe that the vast majority of the big old toms aren't being harvested.

[Mike Leonard]

Interesting data but I am a bit skeptical as to the validity of the numbers. The 14-18 year old one could be a bit of a stretch on the high side.

I am sure the genetics are there for some B&C punkin heads at a very early age.

I have treed toms that I knew where just large sub adults just starting to travel on their own so a little less than 2 years old. Due to certain markings or scars I have treed the same lion over a two year period after this. Just guess because I never harvested the lion but I did see him after he was killed as a 4 year old but I would say he weighed 90 pounds the first time, a year later maybe 125 and the last time he was 140 pounds. I let him go but some other hunters went in the same area and evidently caught him the same afternoon I left him in the tree. I saw them later in town and looked him over. Although only a 4 year old he was a very good trophy and his skull green scored over 15". My guess is if he had lived a couple of more years he would have reached true Sr. Class size of 160 plus pounds but I doubt is his head would have grown more than 1/4 of an inch.But then again 4/16th. would bump it up a good deal in the state records book. Although there is really no other way to establish a record for lions because bone doesn't lie. Many true monster class cats in body size and weight don't make the all time records book. I think just like people some have bigger feet and bigger heads. I trailed up a lion one time that I thought from it's track it would be the lion of all lions. It's stride was sort of weird but man what a splayed out slew footed track. It turned out to be a very old and very pregnant female lion. She was heavy with kittens and I guess the way they were setting in her was causing her to sway or waddle along, and she really splayed out her feet.

[Plotts]

The average age of lions harvested in South East Idaho is also just under 3 years old. Its not because the old lions are not being harvested; it is because there are no old lions left TOO harvest. Anymore a 5 year old is a rare find and dudes around here get all worked up over a 40" track and call it 'the big one'.

[liontracker]

I don't think the ages are correct either. The field biologist thought 9 yrs old. He sure looked like an old battle scared veteran warrior. Wouldn't it be just right, if the age data was wrong and a new harvest quota was set based on it?

[Mike Leonard]

To me that would be typical of what they do.

Oh maybe they will look at all the broken toothed lions and say this proves there are too many lions. They simply don't have enough food to go around so some of them chew on rocks and break their teeth. LOL!

[Big Mike]

We had a lion killed out of the lion study done in NM about 10years ago. The lion was ear tagged as a kitten and was killed 4 years later weighed around 150ish with around a 15in skull so its possible.

The teeth aging process is'nt as easy as it is deer or an exact science but they can ussually get with in a year or so. So if they said 4 year old it could easliy be a 5 yr old.

For a feild biologist to say 9 yr and tooth analysis to say 4 yr somebody on one end dont know what the hell they are doing!

Not sure what our oldest lion on record is, i will have to check on it but we got several bear teeth back in th 17-21 yr old range

[liontracker]

I called the DOW and they said they cut and stain a cross section of the tooth and that the results are definate within 1 year. No doubt about it...

So that means the field biologist is off.

That Tom led a very rough life in his 3 years!

[Emily]

There is a built in bias in this data because no age is given for many of the samples with broken teeth. I'm sure that old lions are more apt to have broken teeth than young lions. There are no dentists in the lion world, so broken teeth stay broken. Therefore, the sample is biased toward a younger age.

[Big Mike]

They test the first premolar which is a very small tooth right behind the kanines(in NM). When they say broken teeth its ussually broken in the extraction process(ive broke a few). So there shouldnt be any bias for age brackets.

[liontracker]

Emily...not really...those broken teeth were broken on removal by the field technician
and not used to calculate the age data.

[liontracker]

So Big Mike, am I correct in assuming that in our expanding population, if the ave. age being taken is 2.72 yrs., then the majority of the older ones are still walking?

[sourdough]

I will have to go with mike, 14-18 years old, on a wild lion? That in it self does not take a doctorate degree in biology, just some common sense. When talking about feline predators, cougars, bobcats, jaguar, 10-12 is pushing it on the average, in my opinion.

Some may reach an older age but life happens, a 5-6 year old tom lion is bound to have the upper hand on a 10-12 year old and earns his first of many battle scares, if you couple that on top of prey base, that equals a pretty tough world for a predator that is a 100% meat eater. a few years back I found where two toms had met in battle leaving one dead it was a 2-3 year old weighing 125lbs + or - he was bitten through both front legs and had a kill bite through the top of his skull their fur was stung up the hill for 35 to 40yrd broken brush an torn up turf showed a hell of a battle seen.

Females have it just as bad, look at the work she has to do to raise just two kittens to eighteen months, the amount of game she has to catch to raise them is pretty taxing on her teeth, and if found by a mature tom, well, pretty rough on her offspring.

There is a ton of factors involved in a lab, as well as in the field, was it a grad student that did the work ETC..... I know of one instance that two teeth from the same bear were sent in, one tooth aged the bear at 15yrs the other 25yrs that is a 10 year spread how can that be?

Science is just that science. Even among scientist there are conflicting views and thoughts tooth aging processes or visual aging done by two different biologist can end with two different conclusions.

sourdough

[Yaak attack]

Bears are one of the easiest to age through tooth cross sections as they have seasonal growth just like trees. How you gonna get rings from a tree that gets the same light food and water year round like a lion.Just cause someone tells you something don't make it so.

[Big Mike]

Talking with people who do the age data on teeth some will tell you it is exact others will tell you use more as an approximate which I feel is more true.

LT that is an interesting assumption about the population dynamics. Game managers are using these teeth analysis to try to exstablish population growth and declines. I find it hard to make too many assumptions. A 2.72 average one could say that a population is being over harvested and there isnt enough old lions around to boost the average. It could also say hunters arnt being very selective. One could also say there is a surplus of young lions because the population is growing and thats why a lot of young lions being harvested.

I feel that the only way one could tell much about the population is to look at 5-10 year trends in the overall age class. If the overall age keeps increasing over time its safe to say the population is growing, and if the teeth age is declining the opposite would be true.

There are just too many factores involved to make accurate opinions in on short term.
For instance we have a sheep area that we kill about 20 lions in each year. they average 1-2 yr old cats. So what does this tell you. Is there enough lions left to reproduce 20 young lions to get killed each year? Or does it say every young lion that migrates into that area is getting killed and there are no resident lions?

[Big Mike]

Checked into NM tooth data. We have only been aging teeth in lions for a few years and only feamle lions.

Average age of female is 2.5 (not a good average IMO)
Oldest have been 10-14 yrs