COONHOUND BLOODLINES BIG GAME ISSUE

[bearman]

Brady Davis: Hey everything is not just based on the East coast if you actually read the mag you will see there is more than just a couple of articles, also I know for a fact that if you have some Big Game article or pics, you can contribute as well the dog on the cover in his hey day was a pretty decent bear dog as well. Are you the fella that bought or aquired the blue dogs gascon santagenua or something I'm not making fun of it just not sure how to pronounce it. If so what kind of traits are you looking to put into your dogs? If these are your hounds. Just asking a ?

Tiny Santana

[Brady Davis]

Brady Davis: Hey everything is not just based on the East coast if you actually read the mag you will see there is more than just a couple of articles, also I know for a fact that if you have some Big Game article or pics, you can contribute as well the dog on the cover in his hey day was a pretty decent bear dog as well. Are you the fella that bought or aquired the blue dogs gascon santagenua or something I'm not making fun of it just not sure how to pronounce it. If so what kind of traits are you looking to put into your dogs? If these are your hounds. Just asking a ?

Tiny Santana

Tiny, not sure what you're saying about the mag...I did read it...wasn't much of a "big game special" ...that's all I was saying...no biggie

Yes, I did purchase 2 Grand Gascon Saintongeois from liontracker....What kind of traits am I looking for....Nose, nose and more nose! In all seriousness there are many traits these hounds posses that I have been searching for without much luck. If you go to the breed forums and read about the GGS dogs there is a bunch of info on there. But, I was hoping to get way more nose and tracking power, better tempraments, better built dogs that can handle day in n out hunting in any condition,as well as many others, etc....Now time will tell I guess One thing is for sure, I'm excited about my new projects!

[Tim Pittman]

I'm just curious,I'll usually try anything once.And would be more than willing to get rid of everything I own if I found the wonder pack of dogs.I guess I've got a few questions about these dogs,because I'm curious not trying to be a wise cracker.
#1.How big are these guys [in western Oregon the ideal dog 40-55#]
#2.straddle atrack or pick it's head up and push as it warms up?
#3.Locate and tree on big wood where they can't see the game?
#4.What,s the average jumped time of race on a bobcat or bear[not lion]
#5.Hows their feet hold up after 5-7days straight of hunting?
Tim Pittman

[kurt betournay]

Oh yeh, I didn't mention probably the most important one...more raw courage.

Hey there is a Bear magazine out there ,,,BEAR HUNTING,,,if ya just want ta see big bears, Im up in Canada,,,,,,,,,,,cant remember if its a Canadian mag eh.......kurt from canada

[Brady Davis]

Tim~ Sent you a PM....

[Mr.pacojack]

I'm just curious,I'll usually try anything once.And would be more than willing to get rid of everything I own if I found the wonder pack of dogs.I guess I've got a few questions about these dogs,because I'm curious not trying to be a wise cracker.
#1.How big are these guys [in western Oregon the ideal dog 40-55#]
#2.straddle atrack or pick it's head up and push as it warms up?
#3.Locate and tree on big wood where they can't see the game?
#4.What,s the average jumped time of race on a bobcat or bear[not lion]
#5.Hows their feet hold up after 5-7days straight of hunting?
Tim Pittman

I too would like to know this Brady, would you like to pm me too or just share it out here? These are very good questions that any big game houndsmen would love to know. I realize some of these questions have been asked before but when asked about the preformance of the parents and grandparents and older linage it irrupts into a battle.
And if you don't have the answers just be honest.
I too am not being a wise cracker but would like to know a honest answers not stuff you guys have read on the internet because we all know if you search out any breed of dog they are going to tell you they are the greatest breed ever.
Another question from me is, I know you have those 2 pups, but have you any others? Or someone you hunt with with pups of the same age so you can give an honest comparison?
I admire someone trying to improve what we have and what we hunt with. The way this was done , in my oppinion, was very wrong.
Anyone that is making total outcrosses is going to come underfire from others and when you make the claims that you guys have made without any proof other than the internet, And "my hounds look just like Bill Greens"Well then it is going to irrupt into a wildfire, which it has done. And you guys have become butt hurt.
I guess why some of us have asked so many questions and poked so hard is that most af the claims have been without any base. For example. True Southwest Dry Ground hounds. Both of you live in a state that you can only hunt bobcat and lion during the snowiest season of the year. Breeding unproven parents.
So you can pm me if you would like or you can even call me if you would like or just put it out here in the open and be done with it .
Once again I would like an honest answer without all the BS. And lets talk about it like adults Again you are more than welcome to call me, I know alot of misunderstandings have accured because it is hard to put across what we really feel on the internet.

[driftwood blue]

Geeee... how many of these critics have actually written a story and mailed it in to UKC Bloodlines for the big game issue??
they sure cannot print what they do not get.
a few years back I wrote a column for the bloodlines and they never failed to get it in if I got it to them on time...
Try it you just might see some results.

[Brady Davis]

Devin, I'll tell you or anyone else why I have done what i am doing...and no, I am not in the least bit butt hurt...not even close.

For the last 5 years or so I have been looking for a hound that was in MY OPINION better than what I had seen previous. I have been hunting with hounds for about 15 years and seen alot of bad dogs and some real good ones...Most of them were either bad or good by accident. I'm sure some of them probably could have been better if I knew what I was doing but when I started I was a 12 year old kid who had dogs with my buddies and we hunted. Despite the fact that I live in Colorado, I have hunted in many other states and plan to continue to hunt in many states. Everybody talks about a cold nosed hound, one that can track, trail n tree etc. I don't doubt for 1 second that there are many out there that can and do successfully. I however, wanted something that had traits not found here. For example, I really like the looks of bigger hounds, problem is most bigger hounds aren't built to run long distances day in and day out...They fall apart. I also wanted a dog that could consitently strike game off a rig and I wanted dogs that could handle both cold as well as heat. I have run Blueticks, B&T's, Plotts, etc and they just got way hot in the summer months depending on where we hunted. I also wanted hounds that had a calmer tempermant than I was finding in most coonhounds. Maybe I like the romantic notion of an rangy, well built hound that has endurance, nose, brains and is not a hyped up crackhead.

I found out about the GGS awhile back searching through French websites. Having the ability to read, and speak French has been a huge help. I have been talking to breeders who hunt them everyday on game in Europe and around the world...Now, do they have Cougars or Bobcats...no, obviously not. But, the standards for the GGS to be registered in the registry there is much more strict...You can not get pups from 2 reg parents and register them. There is a conformation test and a hunting test the hounds must pass at 1 year old. So, I personally have not seen a line of hounds more proven on hunting and conformation….anywhere. There is obviously the newness of them running lion, bobcat, etc. But, they have the prey drive and the brains….we’ll just put them on our game here in the US.
I personally don’t get too worked up about whether these dogs have been in Bill Greens blood or whether or not anyone on here cares about how the breeding or any breeding was done. All I know is I have spoken to many many many breeders who hunt these dogs and all I have to go off of is their word…due to the rarity of these dogs in the US that’s about the best I can go on. Do I think they will be superior hounds here? Yes, I do. Could I be wrong? Yes, of course.
I have many friends with hounds and some with pups out of fantastic breeding that we will be hunting my 2 with to give them an evaluation. I’m not here to train them and pull a Rockcreek and ask every man on here to come drop hounds next to mine. I wanna catch cats and bears in ANY condition I put them in. I am sick of lion hunting and not catching game because of the “bad conditions”….Perhaps I need to be a better lion hunter, but perhaps having a different hound will make a difference? I can tell you this, liontracker and African know a bunch about the breed themselves. They are your guys for some detailed questions. As my hounds grow, I will post their honest evaluations and let guys know how they are doing for me….I know lot’s of people wanna know. I will be the first to say if they work or not. I’m not out to be the GGS guy, I’m out to catch game consistently and I believe at this point that the GGS is going to cut the mustard for me.
I have sure gotten a kick out of everyone getting wound up about the GGS on here. If they don’t think it was done right or they don’t think they are worth 2 cents then DON’T BUY THEM. There are those of us who believe they are going to be good…But, asking me how they do on bobcat…well, I dunno. Mine sure haven’t blown one up yet…haha.
I could go on but that in a nutshell is my thoughts. Y’all can pick them apart and tell me I’m wrong or right.. I don’t care. I just know this is a direction I am going to go and hopefully it works out…
Hopefully that helps you “get me” a little better.


PS, I also don't think a houndsman out there would say they don't look awesome!

[Mr.pacojack]

Thank you for your honesty. And it was exactly what I thought you would say if you were to be honest. I really hope they work out for you. Your hopes are high and that can be a good thing but it can be very bad too.
People got wound up by the BS that was being slung around from your buddy LT. I asked you because I thought you would give me a honest answer, and I feel you did.
Good luck with them and I would hope you would stay this humble about them as you give your updates. You will get alot further than your buddy will.
Hunting with other people will only open your eyes to what you have, weather it be good or bad, don't be to fast to not drop your dogs with others. Many times when I thought I had really good dogs, I dropped them wtih someone else and they proved me wrong. And I will be the first to admitt when I dont have the caliber of dogs that someone else does , but I have to see it first. Too many people on here are color blind (breed) and it is so distuctive to only them.
Again good luck.
PS I do understand how they do it in europe. The German Jagd terriers are the same way, some of the most strict testing I have ever seen. The problem was they were not let out of the country and when they did get out it was only the culls that made it here, money got involved. It took many years before this breed was perfected and done justice. And they still say we don't have the quality they have.

[liontracker]

Hey Pittman:

#1.How big are these guys [in western Oregon the ideal dog 40-55#]

Depends on the strain within the breed, but 70 - 90 lbs.

#2.straddle atrack or pick it's head up and push as it warms up?

Depends on the age of the track and the particular dog. They run to stretch and push it hard . After the jump they are extremely fast.

#3.Locate and tree on big wood where they can't see the game?

Because of their nose they are a hell of a locator. Big wood, don't know as there is no tree game in europe and mine haven't put any up a tree over 20 feet high. It looks like they could be a specialist at it though.

#4.What,s the average jumped time of race on a bobcat or bear[not lion]

This breed hasn't been run on bear yet. On bobcat in the heat,after the jump, about 20 - 30 minutes. But they are still kind of green yet.

#5.Hows their feet hold up after 5-7days straight of hunting?

Like iron, as tough as my tight Camerons. Their feet will not be an issue in my country.

People got wound up by the BS that was being slung around from your buddy LT.

Paco - for the record, I don't have an ounce of BS left in me, my father beat it all out of me when I was a young boy...it lasted permanently.

don't be to fast to not drop your dogs with others

I don't know about anyone else, but I have too much time invested in mine to take the chance on tree fights or trash races

claims have been without any base. For example. True Southwest Dry Ground hounds

I am not talking about recent history, I am talking about 60 -100 years ago. Start with the Bill Green CD and then got through the Lee bros and Goswick pics, then have Greens grandson send you some pics of the GS's that Bill had

pups of the same age so you can give an honest comparison?

.


The most honest comparison to date was when I run the parents to those pups against my Camerons.

[liontracker]

Damn screen went unstable so I have to start again. Anyway, my Camerons are a pretty good measuring stick to judge them against. I already made two different posts with pics of the upper limit of the nose my Camerons have and got shit remarks for it. Be that as it may, the GS is even colder and in a nutshell is why I got them in the first place. However, my Camerons are cold and fast... If anyone doubts it then you have to ask yourself why. Maybe it is the caliber of dog you started. Maybe it is the way you train. Maybe it is a combination of both. I know I have pushed mine to the limit. Someone else asked about days in the woods. I have been self employed my entire life, other that the last 18 months, because someone dangled a carrot in front of me and I bit. Up until then I was able to come and go as I pleased. I spent 200 plus days in the woods per year. That is the kind of time it takes to push a hound to it's limit. Someone else mentioned that my country is snow country. Yeh right, more like mud and frozen mud. We have some of the worst freeze thaw extremes imaginable 30-40 degree difference from daylight to 1:00. If you wanna catch in those conditions, you need way more than an average nose. I have only ever started a total of three tracks from the truck, all else has been on foot or horseback cutting through country away from roads. If you wear out that much boot leather behind hounds you will know exactly what you have and what they are made of. My definition of a cold nose is more extreme than most of you guys because of how I hunt. I have also heard the reports of the best lion hunters catching 500-1000 lions in a lifetime. Numbers do not matter to me. As a matter a fact, none of my animals are in the books, probably never will be either. What matters to me is how hard of a track my hounds and I can trail up and tree. It is a documented fact that an american bloodhound trailed a 12 day old track 140 miles and caught the guy. Why can't a well bred hound catch a week old lion? Oh, and as for the 15 mile race, it comes with the territority. Sometimes you start a 3 day old track of a super tom heading up country or down country and he goes to the other extreme of his range. That is where the speed and stamina comes in to play as I want to catch it that same day. On those races I can only hope I am on horseback or else it is a very long day, 12-24 hours by the time I get back to the truck. The way I hunt and the hounds I demand is not for everybody and that is just right, as I have yet to cross the track of another hunter or his hounds.


And another thing, do not ask how I do it when the season only runs from mid Nov. throught the end of March. I happen to know from personal communication that there are at least 3 gamewardens and five police officers that regularly visit this site, not to mention the guys in the offices of every Game and fish agaency west of the mississippi that haven't even registered and are just "visitors".

Been there, done that and then some...but thanks for asking

[reed]

Brady thanks for the reply. You said you could see the difference so I was wondering what difference you saw or how you saw it.

I think that most guys are looking for the things that you mentioned, I know that I am. I would like to see these dogs work. I only live about 20 minutes from you so I don't think it would be to hard to catch up with each other. If the you have a some time let me know would you please. I wouldn't bring anything as I am not trying to push anything on you. I just want to see what I don't have.

[Brady Davis]

Reed.....Where do you live....Once again, they are 12 weeks old so coming to see them wouldn't be much more than look at how cute they are PM me your location if you'd like and we can hook up sometime.....

[reed]

I live in Greeley. Like I said if you are doing anything with them, I don't want to push myself into the situation. Just interested in seeing the dogs. What age do you start them?

[jimmyd]

What month is this issue? I would like to see it and form my own opinion. Thanks, Jimmy