New Utah Bear Laws

[Yard Dog]

Ike, you make some good points and I agree with alott of your views. I hope you can get the information on usage you are talking about, it would be good to know. But here is why I question the DRW,s agenda:

First: I, as many others, was contacted the last several years for the bear pursuit survey. They ask about days in the field, number of bears bayed or tree'd ect. Things you would expect. But they also wanted to know about the number of houndsmen I encountered and if I had had any conflicts with them. It seemed to me they were looking to document problems. They did not ask about problems with campers or recreators, just houndsmen.

Second: If this is a problem between houndsmen and recreators, and it may be, I have to wonder why the DWR has to throw in the exemption on pursuit permits for the guides? The summer season is a pursuit only season.

[Ike]

Ike,

How is letting the out of state houdsmen the begining of the end? I am from colorado and love to pursue bears on the san juans and la sals. I am just as respectful and take just as much care of the mountains as you locals do. I am not trying to make anyone mad but don't see how its our fault. We don't break any laws or mess with anyone else. And when I say we I talk for the guys I hunt with. From what I've saw we take more care and show just as much or more respect than some of the locals. Maybe because we aren't able to hunt bears in colorado. Just don't see how it is the out of stater fault.

My comments were not against non-resident bear pursuit, nor was it intended against any of the guys from Colorado. Many of you may wel (and most possibly are) more respectful than some of the guys from here. But the facts are the facts, and that is increased use of the resource cause things to come to a head on the fall hunt. I was in the meetings, all of those meetings, and like it said it only took one year after the non-resident hounddoggers came into Utah and we lost the fall bear bears.

But it wasn't just DWR, it was all those guys who have limited entry, quality, once-in-a-lifetime tag for elk and deer on those three units that threw us under the bus. I always did my chasing when those huts weren't going, in the middle of the week, and often times only for a day or two. Nowdays hounddoggers pull in with forty or fifty dogs and set up camp for a month, end of story and end of pursuit season. And none of those guys learned anything from loosing the fall bear pursuit. I wasn't picking on any of you guys, just stating the facts and how the history of fall bear pursuit died, and die it did!

Think about the fall pursuit like this, say you draw a bull elk tag on the San Juan and have been waiting for twenty years for that tag, and knwo full well that you will never live long enough to draw again. Then you are working a 400 class bull elk with a bugle and attempting to get in tight on him with a bow to kill him, and about then a pack of hounds go over the ridge on a bear and cost you the only shot you'll ever have at that bull. How mad are you goona get at that dogger? And what would you say to DWR aout those hounds? Just pointing out the other side, don't forget that I am a dogger and do not hunt deer or elk.......

ike

[Ike]

First: I, as many others, was contacted the last several years for the bear pursuit survey. They ask about days in the field, number of bears bayed or tree'd ect. Things you would expect. But they also wanted to know about the number of houndsmen I encountered and if I had had any conflicts with them. It seemed to me they were looking to document problems. They did not ask about problems with campers or recreators, just houndsmen.

Second: If this is a problem between houndsmen and recreators, and it may be, I have to wonder why the DWR has to throw in the exemption on pursuit permits for the guides? The summer season is a pursuit only season.

Yard Dog,

I don't know when DWR started asking if we had any conflicts and if we encountered other houndsmen in the field, but I believe it was long before the Summer Pursuit season was established--don't know for sure. Again, questions like that are to help support and establish if hutners are getting along or made enough to kill each other in my opinion, and yes to see if changes need made.

In the exemption for guides and outfitters is clearly states a guide has to have a paying client with a tag with him, therefore, it has nothing what so ever to do with summer pursuit, but rather assists the guide in expenses who has a paying client. I would guess that a guide can not run without a pursuit permit if that hunter is not with him, so he is in and out in the spring or fall and not part of the summer deal. Utah just imposed new guide laws that ads expenses to an outfitter or guide, also some of these guides may not even own a hound, may well borrow them or hire a dogger and therefore want exempt from the permit. I'm only guessing........

ike

[lionhunterdaves]

IKE,

Thanks for clarifying. I do see the reasons for the fall pursuit to be taken away because I am an elk and deer hunter. But nothing is being hunted in the summer months. Does the DWR realize how much revenue the small towns of Monticello and blanding will lose if they take away or limit the pursuit seasons. I spend a lot of time and money in both. Not to mention all the bears that will be in town. I don't know what I will do when or if they change this. I go to NM and AZ quite a bit but both are quite a ways from me, gas aint cheap! Where the san juans are thirty minutes away and the la sals about an hour away. I guess I will have a pack of bear and lion dogs that will only get to chase lions! Sorry for rambling on and on, but this whole situation just chaps my ass. Is their any thing that we could do to help get this where it doesn't pass? Thanks for listening.

[Tim Lockwood]

You guys should fight this all you can. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. The anti-hunters are strong and once they put some limits on you guys you will never be able to take it back. The anti-hunters here are in bed with DFG. Here in CA its so restricted its out of hand. For over five months of the year most of the state is closed to having a hound loose in the woods (yes, I mean loose. Off a leash is a ticket), we have no pursuit season, 1 dog to 1 hunter limit during deer season, treeing switching and gps collars are banned, you can't pursue or kill a lion and if you do kill a lion its a felony and now they want to force us to spay and cut all our hounds (hopefully this one does not pass). The cancer is spreading and if you allow them to take some of your freedoms they will take it all down the road.

I personally only have five dogs total and all five are used for my guided hunts. I have seen guys with 12 plus dogs trying to catch a bear and yes like previously stated that person should get fewer/better quality of dogs but thats their choice not ours. What about the guys with young dogs or guys training alot of dogs?

The point is a law will not solve a problem. The guys who are a problem will continue with their same old behavior and the guys who really get punished by these laws are the responsible houndsman who didn't need governing in the first place.

[Ike]

[quote="Tim Lockwood"The point is a law will not solve a problem. The guys who are a problem will continue with their same old behavior and the guys who really get punished by these laws are the responsible houndsman who didn't need governing in the first place.[/quote]

Ain't that the truth! besides, if a bear crosses three roads (or canyons) there still could be three different houndsmen start the track with eight dogs, and the potential for 24 hounds on the tree. DWR should sit down with a group of houndsmen and discuss these issues before implementing new laws but they don't, and then the shit always lands on the public......

ike

[slownsteady]

The State of Utah is based on controling every aspect of its residents lives. They have been putting it to their residents for years and getting by with it. You can always buy rights here like the world record elk that was bought and paid for.There concerned with money it drives them . Maybe if You propose a hunting dog permit fee for each dog you run then maybe They will discover they like hounds .
As long as you stand for being pushed around they will do it. Let your repersentives know how you feel .These guys are accoutable to someone there not God even though they think they are. They have done a lousy job of managment for years I think Utah leads the country this year in bear attacks because of their patchwork bear areas. There position is that they own the state and there here to tell you what to do.

[Bearkiller]

I think WE, as in houndsmen, need someone on the rac board. At least then we might have ears in good spots and MAYBE a little more credibility. Maybe then we could get a quorum and actually have our voices heard. How is it that the rac members couldn't even all show up? How many of those things can there be a year to not have it be a priority? The only real negative I percieved was the guy who was rambling on about 2 bear races with 8 dogs each. Its not an image we want to paint of us or the use of tracking equipment. As we stand now it should only be refered to in the realm of dog safety, which it is for 99% of us. Not electronic hunting. Next thing we know we'll be like california and washington with restrictions on our tracking gear. Just my thoughts. I will be going to the wildlife board meeting on January 6th if anyone wants to carpool or needs a ride, let me know. Also, maybe the coon hunting clubs could add their membership to the proposals the UFH has put together. To help bring the numbers up.

[Yard Dog]

Bear Killer, If I'm not mistaken at least 3 of the rac members work as biologist for other fedral agencies. They work with the DWR closely and I really dont think they would go againts anything the division wants to push.

Also, I ran into a guy(non-houndsmen who works for a local fedral agency) while out shopping the other night, he ask me how the rac meeting went. I told him that although I was unable to attend, I heard it went just about the way everyone thought it would. He then informed me that he had talked to one of the rac members and the scoop he got was that once it was explained to the houndsmen what the state was wanting to do, that for the most part the houndsmen were okay with it. He also asked me if I knew that Utah was one of the only states that allow for such activitys? I did not try to correct him, it would have been a waist of time.

Sounds like there is a big disconect and some people will only hear what they want.

[Bearkiller]

I'm not sure what rac meeting he was at. But the only agreement that I noticed was that the division was going to do what they want. We can either go along and hope to influence the decision or fight it in its entirety and lose any input we might get otherwise. From what I saw, there will be a dog limit. There also will be limited entry pursuit limits in eastern utah. The only thing that we may be able to get modified is the acutal number of dogs.