ever have a good dog get worse?

[NorWester]

Here's the trouble I have with correcting the back track with the e-collar.

It's only effective if the hound understands why it is getting corrected.
If it does then it is an extremely effective corrective measure. But if that is the case and the dog KNOWS it is taking the backtrack...... well, now you have to assess why it is doing it to begin with and that tends to make me (personally) question why I'm keeping such a hound.

Now I'm gonna write something here that is bound to fire up the masses.

Any hound with bonafide, serious, deadpan nose power will back track occassionally in ideal scenting conditions.

If this never happens to you then you either don't have any hounds with some serious nose power or you hunt in ideal conditions the majority of the time.

[twist]

If a person is serious about his hounds catching bobcats, back tracking is unaceptable no exceptions just like Dads Dogboy said just like false treeing. I dont like to walk any further than I have to and it better not be in the wrong direction and to a tree with no cat! I dont have the perfect cat dogs and will never claim to but they better give thier whole heart and be doing it in the right direction then when I get out run and that happens alot I dont feel near as bad. later, Andy

[david]

If a person is serious about his hounds catching bobcats, back tracking is unaceptable no exceptions just like false treeing. later, Andy

Andy, would it be safe to say that any of the dogs living at your place have never false treed? I am assuming you would have culled them if they did, correct? no exceptions!

I actually like black and white and sweeping statements myself, but have been chastised a couple times for making them.

I am not the greatest hunter that ever lived, but I have been 100% sure my dog was backtracking and was proven 100% wrong on more occasions than I care to remember.
That is one point. There really are very few times when I can know 100% even if I think I do. Lion Tracker's example is a good one.

Now, if one dog is treed on a cat and has it, and another one comes screaming off the tree the same way they went it... that is when I have used Waylons method. But even then, you have to assume there was only one cat involved.

And will also agree with Norwester that some of the best COLD NOSED bobcat trailers I have known, and known of, would take a track backwards on occasion. These are dogs that absolutely made things happen on a bobcat hunt. There were darn few days when these dogs could not make something happen. When you have a dog like this you become greatly puzzled by all the talk about not finding a workable track because of poor scent conditions so often.

No exceptions? OK. But it makes me feel that much more priveleged to have seen some dogs like this before they got eliminated by a good bobcat hunter. Make sure you guys get ahold of me befor you pull the trigger on a dog like that. I could use a few thousand dollars, and I got freinds that will gladly give it for a reliable jump dog that might back track more than once a year. They know they will save that much in gas by not having to drive around all day looking for a "workable" track. I guess if you have high bobcat populations, you are not going to be able to relate to that.

Norwester, this is your fault.

Bobcat Jack, sounds like a nice dog. How is it bred?

[Dads dogboy]

David,

I do not think that Twist or I said that we have never had a Hound not commit one of these unpardonable Sins. What we said was that they are unacceptable behaviors….this is so for any number of reasons but for Dad it is in trying to build an effective cohesive Pack of Hounds that will Honor and Respect the other Hounds while on the ground.

The E-collar is a very effective tool in Dog Training. But a Tool you should darn sure know how to use. Any Hound with BRAINS soon learns to respond to the pressure of the shock in the manner the user wishes. Once the Hound has learned this…with Dad it is in the 4 to 5 month old time frame when the Pup is taught to “Come Here”, just sending the Tone to the Collar should cause the Hound to rethink what it is he is doing that needs to be corrected.

Hounds with Brains and the Biddable gene, this is usually all it takes…with hard headed Hounds more pressure is used till the response wanted is received.

Dad has a Young Hound now who has the potential to be the Best he has fed in a long time…yet he wants to follow his Nose (he has the best we have seen in years) and not engage his BRAIN. This has caused him to be Toned and Shocked. He is about to figure out that when Cat smell fills his Nose check all avenues the Cat may have gone before telling the World.

The common thread that I have seen in the Great Houndsmen that I have known or know of is that they always “Doubted” their Hounds and were ready to correct them in a Heart beat! Mr. Hardaway’s rule of better to stop a Hound 12 times and be wrong than to let the Hound get away with the wrong behavior once is a Darn Good rule to follow!

This is what Dad has done for years and rumor has it that this style works!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[Dads dogboy]

David,

After thinking some more on the subject Dad adds:

"Any Hound may pick up a Bad habbit for no apparent reason. It then becomes the Houndsman's job to correct this Bad habibt! By using the E-collar after proper background training of the Hound, one of two things should happen:

The Hound will stop the inappropriate behavior and get back with the program.
or
The Hound will return to you or the Truck.

Both responses are OK, the 1st is what you hope happens, the second gives the Hound a chance to regroup, reflect on what he has done wrong and then go back to the Race."

CJC

[NorWester]

David wrote,

Norwester, this is your fault

I know.
I also knew what I wrote would drag in you in too....... sorry buddy, I just can't help myself sometimes

The real bummer is we're all gonna come out of this discussion thinkin each other know nothing about nose power, hounds or hound work
For me that's ok as I don't know much anyway so you should probably just distance yourself from what I write while you have the chance

Just remind yourself that if you lived and hunted cats down south you would have no reason to tolerate a little backtracking either.
Unfortunately where we hunt and run, to get the nose power necessary to do the job in tough conditions you'd better be prepared to accept the baggage that sometimes comes with such nose power.

David wrote.

But it makes me feel that much more priveleged to have seen some dogs like this before they got eliminated by a good bobcat hunter. Make sure you guys get ahold of me befor you pull the trigger on a dog like that. I could use a few thousand dollars, and I got freinds that will gladly give it for a reliable jump dog that might back track more than once a year.

You have no idea how much time I spend going over classified ads looking for little hounds that cold track or show "extra mouth" and the various minor faults that come with big league nose power, hoping I can get ahold of the dog before the owner shoots him

[Dads dogboy]

Norwester,

I did not know that Geography played a role in how Cold Nosed an individual Hound was. As we have discussed in other places “Cold Noses” are more relative to the man doing the talking than the Hound itself.

Yes here in the South and Southeast we may have more game than you all up north, however there are nights and days when only one Varmint has walked, you had better have the Nose Power to work out a Bad track and keep moving it till the critter is jumped.

There is a big difference in a Hound making a one time mistake backtracking a short ways correcting itself and one who turns this into an every time occurrence.

Also the last time I checked Twist was located a hell of a lot further north than what is considered the south.

Also when I was just a dumb kid as opposed to a dumber adult I had Rabbit Beagles. Now we did not have the wily Snowshoe to chase across miles of winter wonderland. All we had were asshauling Canecutters (swamp rabbits) running in acres of briars in the Brazos river bottom. These fellows would make you think you were after a Grey Fox or Bobcat (which sometimes we were) and you had better not tolerate backtracking or you sure would not be having Rabbit & dressing for Sunday dinner.

Just my thoughts and more fuel for stimulating conversation!

CJC

[dwalton]

A dog that comes off a tree or hole on a cat can ruin a hole pack of dogs, put a stop to it now. You have been given some great advice. Use the shock collar. Dewey

[twist]

If a person is serious about his hounds catching bobcats, back tracking is unaceptable no exceptions just like false treeing. later, Andy

Andy, would it be safe to say that any of the dogs living at your place have never false treed? I am assuming you would have culled them if they did, correct? no exceptions

David I will have to say that is why I said a person must use a training collar to stop these faults befor they advance to a point were it may be to late. Yes I have had young dogs back track and peg a tree with out anything in it but they are corrected and if they do not learn soon they are CULLED. As like I said in (experianced) bobcat dogs this is unexceptable and if any one that has a experianced bobcat dog lets them get away with this they are not an experianced bobcat dog in my eyes. I like the way Dads Dogboy and dwalton think. later, Andy

[david]

[
Now, if one dog is treed on a cat and has it, and another one comes screaming off the tree the same way they went it... that is when I have used Waylons method.
.

Check Waylons method. (It does not involve a shock collar. And as Waylon said, it does decrease a dogs back trailing.)



I still would trade a boat load of fine registered treeing walkers, and the boat, for one very cold nosed jump dog that might be seen on a back track. Thing is, many people would never know it ever hit a track backwards because you would have to leave the road to figure it out. This dog will have a jumped bobcat befor it comes across a road. And it is a cat that no treeing walker I have ever owned or hunted with could have gotten jumped. And most of my dogs have been treeing walkers.

The fact that this is evidently a foreign concept to all the great bobcat hunters sure has left me with a lot of questions about places, conditions and dogs. I know what I know. It's trying to evaluate what I dont know by what I do know that leaves me puzzled at the moment

[NorWester]

Just curious David, but how many of those great bobcat hunters you refer to have hunted in the conditions and terrain you have in MN?
I'm guessin not many.

That's why the concept is so foreign to them

Everyone wants to believe their dogs have superior nose power. Not many do.
Not many need to have it.

That's why it is so rare and why it feels like no one understands the questions much less has the answers.

[sdred]

I would be carefull just how soon you correct a dog for backtracking and how far back the track is acceptable for a dog to run. I think a little backtracking to figure out a track is all right. I have seen on many occasions that a dog with a nose trying to figure out a track run it backwards a ways then eventually come back up the track to where the scent goes cold, make a wider sweep and take the hottest scent they find. I have had much better luck having them doing a little of this then to blow a track and go silent because they wont come back to where the track got cold. In the snow I have personally tracked bobs that will backtrack step for step 50yds or so then jump 15 to 20 feet of track and head somewhere else. Now if the dog just keeps running the back track then the houndsmen might have to hook up the dog make the big 180 and see if the dogs can cut it hotter. To tell the truth the only dogs that seem to have a little backtrack issue to figure out tracks are those that are trying to figure it out with their nose. We use faster dogs that can drift a cat and might look up occasionally to put the pressure on to tree. We decided when to turn that dog in on the voice of our start dog. With that being said, if you have a dog that is older and has figured these tricks out with their nose before and is just now backtracking forever then maybe its a medical issue. Not trying to put myself up there with any of you more experienced guys just saying what I have seen myself.

[pete richardson]

to answer your ?

sure, ive seen good dogs get worse- ive seen good dogs have a bad day-
dont sweat it one time- - if it keeps happening , i might try e-collar - i might see what i could do about it without the e-collar first--not a real easy thing to cure -


you got 50 cats with that dog--that would make her a legend around here -

ship her to me

Any hound with bonafide, serious, deadpan nose power will back track occassionally in ideal scenting conditions.

i agree with you keith-- doesnt have to be ideal either

i have seen dogs with just average nose backtrack away from a tree---im talking alot--
the ones ive seen do this ALOT were just sorta retards-- like a dog that constantly slick trees -
a dog that slick trees every once in awhile is no problem to me--- they might be the ones that trees when its iffy -the best ive seen ,slick treed ocassionally -

some dogs are terrible to slick tree- retards , thats why i understand what twist and cjc are saying-- nobody is wrong here--im still looking for a perfect hound

if i culled every dog i ever saw backtrack-- im pretty sure that would have been big mistake-- would have culled the best ive ever owned or hunted with

all the best ones ive seen did some backtracking-- i hate it too but i think its the price you have to pay - i have had dogs almost culled for backtracking that ended up being some of best start dogs ive seen--

some got culled anyway---just too much of it

cjc-well -- geography and conditions do play a role in whats needed - the amount of game available to run does influence what kind of dog i need -
- i read one of your stories last nite-- saw a couple cats cross the road--- saw a stray-- - ive seen one cat cross the road not chased by dogs ,when cat hunting--in 30 years -- i dont know anything about the cat hunting you do except what youve wrote----i can only dream about it

let me tell you bout cat hunting here-

sometimes have 3-4 guys with snowmobiles cruising for tracks--might walk into ledges or rock piles . just hoping to see a track

-the average day , we dont see a track at all
-if we are luckier than average we might find a track that was made the night before by afternoon-thats a good day - - we cant hunt cats at night, altho we look for tracks in the dark - we hunt for bobcat tracks like the guys out west are looking for lion tracks-
we need a dog that will trail ANY track we find -we get like a 28 days season ,if its above zero nites during cat season thats an above average day
ive been known to put dogs on tracks i didnt think was even practical to run just hoping it would lead us to a fresher track or maybe scare one out
"hail mary" cat hunting

its short season and cat tracks are scarce- i dont think ive ever seen a great cat dog , -but i have seen some that could jump an older track than whats really practical
ive never seen a great start dog that didnt do any backtracking- its just the price you pay --

ive seen dogs that have good noses that could run a fresh track in tough conditions-- better nose than average-- seen quite a few like that that didnt backtrack -
but first i got to get this track jumped ---

nyways - i need to cold trail them
a little different than rigging for them -or seeing some strays --you are in cat heaven

most years we have deep snow- dogs run single file--there is no use for a pack--
we sometimes run more dogs just so they can take turns busting thru the snow -2 dogs will always run faster than one, usually make more mistakes - too many dogs in deep snow just doesnt help

I know what I know. It's trying to evaluate what I dont know by what I do know that leaves me puzzled at the moment

me too david ,
cat hunting will drive you crazy--

i used to coon hunt alot- had some dogs that would run a cat - treed some cats with those dogs by accident ,,even some by striking from truck --if they didnt tree--i didnt know what they were running. thats closest i can relate to cjc style of cat hunting wt - i love to hear about it though

i would like to see if those dogs could trail up a day old track when it was zero

what can they do its if its 30 below ?

better to stop a Hound 12 times and be wrong than to let the Hound get away with the wrong behavior once

i almost spit coffee on my keyboard on that one had a buddy thats dead now-used to always say something just like that --that was his motto when trashbreaking
sorta mine too - never trust a hound thats not grey in the face

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Pete,

I bet you and Dad see eye to eye on way more than Hounds!

Come see us when you have some off time. We ARE blessed in some good country and liberal seasons. Last night (the Rut is on here) we jumped a big Sow Cat. She crossed th road headed into a different block...after turning the truck around to move closer to the Race, a big Tom ran across the road.

I know yall's scenting conditions are tough up there but come see us when the humidity is below 20%, the wind out of the East and the temp is over 100. Then have the Hounds on the rig strike cold, you put down on a track you know you can not trail but some how they do, then jump run and catch the varmint...then have a Deer Runner pull up and tell you he saw the Cat at that intersection almost 12 hours before....oh there were only one set of Cat tracks at that intersection. This don't happen often...more often its listen to some cold trailing out to a road where the track ends...but then there are those days when Dog Feed gets cheaper!

Seriously the welcome mat is always out for a Good Hunter and Houndsman like your self!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[david]

ive never seen a great start dog that didnt do any backtracking- its just the price you pay --

Sure am glad you got up out of the lotus position for a minute Uncle Pete, the Sage. I was feeling a little outnumbered by the big namers.

Now if we were involved in an ultimate fighting ring, I can not think of a tag-team mate I'd rather have than Norwester. But in this arena, I'm afraid we were out of our league.

We got a few more for the book of "Uncle Pete's Proverbs" as well:

never trust a hound thats not grey in the face

By the way, there has been a book written about a legendary start (and finish) dog who was also seen backtracking now and again. "Leave her alone, and let her do her job..." The book is finished although not published. It was written by a Michigan hunter, and I can not wait to see it. If you are reading this Mr Author, c'mon, lets go...

I bet you cant guess what breed she was?

OK maybe CJC guessed it. She was a papered Running Walker and one of the more remarkable cold trailers I have heard of. Unfortunately, she was sterile if I am not mistaken. CJC, where do you find Runners that can cold trail like that? Your back yard maybe?

We use faster dogs that can drift a cat and might look up occasionally to put the pressure on to tree. We decided when to turn that dog in on the voice of our start dog.

sdred, for someone who wont classify himself as more experienced, you sure have reached the same forumula it took me about 25 years to get to. I know that when you said "might look up" you were talking about getting it's head up out of the track so it might actually spot the moving cat. The two dog full meal deal.

backtracking forever then maybe its a medical issue.

I was thinking about that also, and as Pete said :to answer your question, yes. Dogs can get worse. The thing that was not mentioned was the age of the dog. Now the seasonally hunted bobcat dog with 50 bobcats around here would have to be AT LEAST
10 years old, so just wondering if the dog is old enough to get a little senile. They will do some crazy things because of that, or some other health trauma as sdred mentioned.

Just curious David, but how many of those great bobcat hunters you refer to have hunted in the conditions and terrain you have in MN?
I'm guessin not many.

Well, none that I know of. Let me see if I can recruit them to move here:

C'mon guys, we got at least 1,500 bobcats here through out the whole state. Why I bet the city limits of Eugene Oregon has less than that! Not sure.

By the same counters, we got over 5,000 wolves. They are so cuddly. And remember, "pain is just weakness leaving the body". By that standard, we got a lot of fine dogs scattered through out the woods with maybe no weakness at all.

Oh, and we have a nice 5 or 6 week long season. The first two weeks the ice on 10,000 lakes and 10000000000000000000 swamps is too thin for the dogs to walk on but perfect for a cat. The third week the dogs are safe on the ice, but you may or may not be. And just when you get your sea legs, the *&^% beaver channels bust through at their channels which are gonna be about armpit deep. Then the fourth week, as Nolte has pointed out, you got two days when the snow is perfect and not crusted: Christmas eve and Christmas day. Then the fifth week, you got great conditions, but your dogs can not walk because you tried running them on crusted snow. I dont know why you would do that: it is only a two and a half hour drive up to the bobcat territory. Then you got three days left. Every thing clicks and you catch a bobcat each of the three days, and man, are your dogs tuned up now for a long 10 1/2 month rest till next season. Maybe next year you will catch all 5 bobcats you are allowed.

It is hard to figure how more famous bobcat hunters and dogs dont come out of Minnesota. C'mon in guys... the water's fine.

I will say though, that this is a great place to test a dogs bobcat genetics. There are a few top top bobcat dogs out here. They did not get that way from three or four years of pounding it into their head. They showed it on their fourth or fifth bobcat track. Genetics.