Feeding before Hunting...Twisted gut?

[driftwood blue]

No one has ever been able to induce the intestinal torsion in a hound..
there might be exceptions in certain lines but I have not heard of that
I have fed about every way there is
having had 2 cases of the "bloat" the 1st was in 82 and was feeding morning and evenings after a hunt... the other was about 5 years ago..

after having the hounds on self feeders since 85, I do believe it lessens the chance of bloat but I also believe the strongest cause is genetic predisposition.

[Dale T]

I know of two different houndsmen that have had dogs die from this, one had fed his 1 hr before roading him about 2 miles, it died that night , he took him to the vet the next day , vet said after looking him over that it looked like he had tristed his gut.

[Ankle Express]

Lost the best hound I've ever led to bloat,torsion or twisted gut, just whatever you want to call it. Then lost another after that. Feeding more than once a day helps with this and is generally healthier for tha dog(s). I don't know if genetically predisposed is the right term for it? My understanding is its the deep chested and longer bodied dogs that are more succeptable. Just exactly what I like in a dog. So yes some lines and breeds may be more succeptable than others and be predisposed while other cases still occur w/out any prior family history but the same things are always present - deep chest and long body. It takes these physical characteristics for there to be enough room for the stomach to actually bloat and roll over. Not all twists are the same, ie- last feeding time relationship right down to the severity of the flip. Its never been proven that food is solely responsible. Actually its got more to do with burned electrolytes and water than anything. You'll find that more flips occur after the hunt and that first feeding than any other time. Especially if the dog has an empty stomach and is spent. To many factors and scenarios to list to cover all the possibilities. Just always remember a dog can go a while w/out food but not nearly as long w/out water. When in doubt don't feed and give just enough water. Wait till you see you body functions-pissing and or passing stool. I like to see both when in doubt. Ever notice a dog passing a really hard dark stool after a hard day(s). Thats what you want to see before you turn them to the dinner plate. Even then bring them back slow. Like half their normal feeding in the morning and half that evening or even less. Once dogs toughen up for the season its not as big of a deal.

[Nolte]

I get a real kick out of threads like this. One guy has this work, while another uses this method, but yet another will only do this. etc, etc.

I think stuff gets WAY over-analyzed. No matter how much we think/look at this stuff they are still JUST DOGS. They'll eat their own poop and screw their sister. I rememember when I was a kid we fed a cheap dog and the dogs were fat & sassy and lived until they were 12. Now we all feed these "highly nutrient enriched" foods and they might make it to 10.

Hunting dogs run the gauntlet every time they are let loose. Thier ticket is punched for some certain date and we'll never know why (unless we decided to punch it early). It's just the way it is, no rhyme or reason and all this time we spend trying to figure it out would be better spent hunting them and enjoying having a old Fido around.

As for feeding schedules, we feed once a day and give water right after. It might be noon, or 8 PM. Depends on if it's a work day or we're out hunting. In the winter we try for a later afternoon time or at dark so the dogs got some calories in their belly for the cold night.

From my experience the vast majority of the time if a dog isn't performing up to standards or looking good, it's due to being sick or just plain being shitty not one of the thousand other variables we try to come up with.

[Matt A]

Full Cry I don't know who's study you looked at unless you looked at PETA or the Humane Society but any vet will tell you 13 ounces to 1 pound of high protein dog food is enough for a running hound hunting 7 days a week fed once a day.

[FullCryHounds]

Matt, please post your information. The more info everyone has the better. I posted the information from just two websites that you can read for yourself. The reasoning that "I've been doing it this way for years" isn't very scientific.

[Ankle Express]

Nolte, in my case you are right and wrong. When a 4 & 5 years old more than healthy dogs suddenly dies it should raise some questions. One, well flukes happen but two in about a year? Nope something ain't right. I'm like you couldn't agree more about the old days. Couldn't agree more with the better they are the more ways they can find to go. I agree they are dogs and we use them like tools. Tools can be replaced, have to be replaced and move on. I agree with enjoying what you got while it lasts cause its a fact it won't last forever. But my experiences with this one thing have been bad and I feel could have been avoided. Operator error. No use to keep replacing tools to pure operator error. I think it was my fault. I was feeding PMI feed. Lost both dogs on PMI. Didn't really realize what I was working with until the second one then I was searching. After the second one I tried to soak a bucket of that feed just to see how easy or hard it was to breakdown/digest. After like an hour it was basically unchanged in the water. So my opinioin is its hard to digest and requires quite a bit of moisture and time to do so. Not a good snenario for a spent dehydrated and hungry dog. Twenty years ago feed companies didn't worry about less clean-up and harder stools. Today they do though. I thought I was doing better or right by my dogs and me with the PMI. Went to far. Should have done the soak test first. From now on I will before I marry up to a feed. Its like an old hat again now. I don't have a true feeding schedule and don't worry about it except for that first time out in a while.

[Ankle Express]

I know a man that twisted his gut on a mean walking bear in the swamps down on the coast a couple years back. Hes a real true bonified bear hunter. He too has lost his best dogs for years to bloat. Alot of redbones. He told me he pushed it to hard for a while. Done what he had to, slammed a bottle of water and laid back to rest and wait for help to come in. He got gassed up and had an air locked feeling. Couldn’t get any relief. Finally after consideration he felt he was tying up or twisting. By the time he got anywhere he was in bad shape. Twisted guts aren’t common in folks and doc.’s ain’t used to looking for it either. W/out him knowing or assuming he was tying up their diagnoses could have been to late. However he got to tell them what he thought and an emergency surgery later he survived. Hes had a hard time but I reckon now is about back to normal. He has shown me before and I can’t remember exactly where to stick each sex at but he can save a dog if caught in time. He is sticking them with a big bore needle and relieving the deadly gases that break down the stomach walls. Males and females are different. Then get the surgery and stomach tacked. I’ll not be trying to save one but try to avoid being there to begin with again. JMO take it for what its worth or what it ain’t

[Nolte]

Stephan,

Don't worry bud, this wasn't directed towards you. It sounds like your situation was a bad one and the factors all lined up to turn out bad. I've only seen a handfull of dogs get a twisted gut and it all turned out the same, not good.

My comments were more for needing to feed them twice, and not giving them water right after, and not an hour before or after exertion. With all those stipulations I was trying to figure out how many hours were left in a day that a guy could actually feed. I mean I've seen dogs get done running for 5 hours, then stuff their head in a bait bucket and eat 5 loaves of bread (with plastic bags) and be OK. While the next one eats a minature corn cob and needs emergency surgery to make it.

I gave up awhile ago on trying to keep a good dog alive past about 6. I figure a guy has a better chance of raising up a stable full of unicorns. Heck, I can't even get my OK dogs to make it that long.

[liontracker]

Ankle Express - noticed you mentioned PMI. Was that water body temp or cold?

I have fed PMI exclusively for 8 yrs with no problems at all, and only once day, in the evening. My 120# SC male inhales it! Especially after a tough day and then drinks a bowl full of water. I think there is another variable at work here.

[twist]

Like I said earlier in the post I feed once a day it works for me but if someone wants to feed twice a day or 10 times a day have at it. For one I dont have time to feed twice a day and when I am hunting hard (cat season) I am up early and out late so how do you guys feeding twice a day and make this work? I guess if studies say it is better to feed twice a day and your dogs will preform better do it maybe that is the reason I am getting out run on some bobcats I believe studies are as valuable as one wants to believe they are I do not believe in smoking as someone brought up earlier as it causes cancer and they have proven that but to blow that theory out of the water I have never smoked a day in my life and have had cancer twice in my 45 yrs of life explain that. Do what works for you and keep hunting the dogs thats the bottom line. later, Andy

[FullCryHounds]

Twist, I think you nailed it on the head. In most cases, those that feed once a day are not looking at it from whats best for thier dogs but whats easiest for them. It only takes me 2-3 minutes to run up and feed all my dogs in the morning since I feed all my dogs right next to each other. I haven't had a health issue with one dog for as long as I can remember. I've been to the vet twice in the last 12 years, both for injuries. I'd like to think it's because of everything I do to keep them as healthy as I possibly can. In the long run, I think it pays off. I have a dog going on 11 this year that hasn't slowed down one bit. He can still run everyday and is still out front of the rest of them. Which is more then I can say for myself.

[TomJr]

I feed twice a day. Used to do the leave food in the bowl thing and that worked great dogs ate what they wanted when they wanted and never too much but then I took in my brothers two labs and they were used to wolfing down thier food once a day. They would eat thier food fast then sneak food from the other dogs bowls when no one was watching Anyhow I could not figure out how to stop them so went to the 2 times a day thing.

I take the dogs on a morning hunt early then feed when we get back after they have cooled down. In the eveing I feed again before bed time. My situation is differant than most as I work at home so have plenty of time and dogs are with me almost 24/7.

[catenaround]

since you guys sparked my interest and i cant give up on a good grawling how much kible do you guys feed pupys

[Ankle Express]

I feed them twice a day till they are about 6 monthes old. Then they go on the big dog schedule of once a day. Just feed enough to keep them growing and healthy. I observe and adjust. I prefer to not overfeed pups. I like to see a rolly polly fat pup but my belief is that being overweight is not the best thing for your pup. I think you can really help yourself here or hurt yourself. Its hard on their feet and developing joints. As well as their mental progression and state of mind. Makes for a lathargic pup instead of an active one. That alone makes for alot of the difference as to when your pup begins to mature mentally or grow up. Active pups will expose themselves to more quicker thus building their common sense and skill set quicker. Remember the fat kid in school? Everybody else climbs to the top of the tree while he tries to get started. Next time he doesn't even bother to try. In my opinion this is why alot of folks think females start earlier than males. When in my opinion they have more self-preservation typically than males and get ahead of the learning curve early on by only eating till their full versus the males eating till its gone or they pop. Prime example the runt. They will show their smarts the quickest. Alot of folks will always get the runt. They've had the best luck with the runts when they do. There is a reason for that whether they understand that or not. Typically just means that pup has spent less time sleeping and more time witnessing and having stimulating thoughts and learning. Just like however its figured out to overcome its size challenges to be able to compete with the stronger ones. Its ahead of the learning curve already. Thats my opinion. I've found it to be generally true. There's not a blanket statement to cover anything/everything of any significance with anything in this world. JMO