Question for Dads dog boy

[Dads dogboy]

Big Mike,

You know the Mcbrides get over looked all the time in discussions about Great Lion Hunters.

Some of this may be due Mr. Mcbride being a little distant, however nothing can take away from the Hounds they have been raising and the the results that Mr. Mcbride and his Sons produce on two Continants (oops make that three Continants, I just read an article about Mr. Roy on the Florida Panther website where he was talking about Leopard hunting in Africa in the 80's).

Having Hounds that can produce the amount of Game that theirs do in Climates from the dry West Texas Mountains to the Jungles of South Florida and Paraguay is amazing! And the fact that they are pretty much Running Hounds says something to this genre's abilities in selected lines.

CJC

[pegleg]

I guess what I am saying is the line between a good running bred cathound and a good treeing bred cat hound is pretty fine. the game"bobcat" is what defines the abilities and traits/style of the hounds that are successful in pursuing them. Therefor better cat hounds tend to be pretty similar.

[briarpatch]

Hunted several years with a very good cat dog who was half running walker and half treeing walker. Would not call her the very top caliber because she did not open enough on a cold track. She would work it, but not open enough for you to tell what she was really accomplishing. When she did get to moving, though, she was very likely to tree it in dry ground Texas. She did not tree until she was 2 years old, but then became excellent at it.

briarpatch

[pegleg]

and this breeding back and forth happens alot. so if you were to sell the pups and they got sold again and the guys hunting buddies came along to see the new dog would they call it a running hound or treehound? I think one of the reasons that these crosses seem to have a country wide acceptance as working is this those hounds aren't real far apart genetically and when someone decides to take the leap and cross a tree dog on a running dog it's usually because both parents are pretty good at the game. so you have hounds that aren't light years apart genetically and have those traits that make good cathounds plus a little bit of vigor thrown in, just maybe

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

There is a lot of common sense in what you said above! Hybrid vigor is an often over looked varible that comes into play with crosses of distant lines and or Breeds.

Crosses of distantly related families in all things you will find that some work, some not. If the parents are good, things stand a better chance of working out (Necterines- Plum X Peach) GOOD X. Parents with limited usefulness not so much (Zdonk-Donkey X Zebra; lots of Zebras in Africa....most Indigenous folks walk around instead of riding Zebras) Bad X and idea!

Probably not a great analogies, but maybe folks will get the point!

Line Breeding, however with the proper Blueprint, ruthless culling and thoughtful evaluations will yeild consistant results.

Just our Thoughts!

CJC

[dwalton]

A couple of my thoughts on running dogs. Running or part running dogs do not have to be wide running drifting type dogs. that is not what I want in a cat dog. I have 1/2 and 1/4 running dog in most of my dogs. I want them for track style not speed. That's what you get is speed by them staying on the track, not over 5 to 10 feet off the track at any time, never smelling at the same spot twice, never barking unless they have a clean track and moving it. The hard charging running dogs are not my idea of a cat dog. There is running dog blood out there that is cold trailing easy going and easy to handle that don't over run a track when the cat makes a turn and will tree. The treeing is the hardest part to get. Some full blood Triggs or Julys will locate and tree. I was told that Charlie Tant dogs were heavy Goodman walker which is an old running dog strain. Art cooper from Klamath Falls OR brought some Tant dogs up to Or in the '50. Charlie came up and hunted with him. I hunted with some Tant dogs in the '60, '70 when I got started cat hunting. Rolland Wilson let me use an old Tant cat dog to start my first cat dogs. I had a 1/2 Tant female in the '80 that was one of the top cats that I have ever owned. Charlie stayed with Bergin Riddle when he died. Bergin had his last dogs. I took my Tant to New Mexico and bred her to then, I did not get any pups I think they finally died out. The first Tant dog I hunted with always ran a track no matter how cold it was. He ran a cold track just as fast as he could run. You never knew that you were cold trailing until you pulled him out then the other dogs, they would just stand on there head with him not there. If your dog catches cat and it suit's you hunt it. Dewey

[Dads dogboy]

Mr. Dewey,

You and Pegleg bring forth very good points concerning Running Bred Hounds. Just like in the Tree Hound World, controlled Competitions have hurt the usefulness of lots of lines and strains of these Hounds. People have bred for traits that are surely not desirable if you are hunting in the "Tall and Uncut" with your quarry trying to head to the nearest "Far Away" place.

There are however some lines from both Genres who have been bred to produce game in tough conditions. As we try to tell folks all the time: determine what kind of Hound works in your area; what kind of Hound suites your purpose; talk or spend time with successful people who hunt in your area and emulate them.

"If your dog catches cat and it suit's you hunt it. Dewey". Truer words were never said!

CJC

[pegleg]

I missed the pm on the Irish hounds must have gotten deleted. however where would someone interested in info on their use and style go to find more info on them directly? I can't get enough info on how other guys are breeding and catching their game. It's almost as bad of addiction as cat hunting itself! could you enlighten us with how the clay hounds are raised trained and handled from birth until retirement. I think many times we focus on the hounds success with out giving thought to how the different "types" of hounds respond best to training. often we overlook the fact that while a certain type of hound will only be so good in one mans hands another hounds men can really bring the best that hound has to offer out. If we can learn the best methods of handling each hound maybe that will broaden are abilities as hounds men ourselves. This was brought to mind by the discussion of how one man can get a mule to perform well while the rest of us can only get mediocre performance from him at best. . I know I'd also love to hear what methods your father uses personally to judge each hounds progress and abilities and at what level each hound is expected to perform at different ages. I gather your hounds are started with the older hounds and run in this way until they begin to put to much pressure on the older hounds? I know each of us have a measuring stick and would like to get a brief glimpse at your fathers. If any of this information is classified please omit it and let us in on the parts that are not.

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

I will be glad to give an overview of how Dad Breeds, raises, trains and judges the Hounds. However this will take a while to put together and have Dad review for errors. I will work on it today and tomorrow will post it.

Thanks for asking and hope it helps, Dads ways might not work for others but have worked well for him for 51 years now. His avg. Catch (with him that is a Cat weighed not treed or holed) is two per week since June 1958 when he started keeping records.

Come see us whenever you can!

CJC

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

Lets start with Dads selection for a mating.

He has been evaluating the prospective parents since before they were born. Watching how their parents and the parents siblings progressed and handled the important things a bobcat hound must deal with and do. Ex: Striking, trailing, style of running(swinging or track running), handling water & briars, making pick ups, etc.

He studies the Bitch closely for weaknesses in any of the above traits. She must be superior in Brains, Nose, Brains, Drive & have a desirable structure conducive to withstanding hard running! She must have siblings that have shown NO weaknesses in any of the mentiond traits. Dad weighs the Bitches importance in the mating as being stronger than the Studs....How much more he can't say. But he does say that if a Bitch has any fault such as a weak nose or mouth, structural weaknes, or lightness in Brains some or all of the Pups will express these weaknesses. Therefor he is much more critical of the Bitch in his Planning!

The male has to be a Solid Hound with no weakness in Nose, Brains & Drive. He as well must have no structural weakness and be a Hound who gets more than his share of Pickups!

Then comes the subjective part that Dad can’t put into words, he says it is just the feel that these two will “Nick”.

After the mating is done the bitch is hunted lightly up to 6th week of pregnancy, then exercised regularly right up till delivery. She is moved into the house a day or two before her due date. She has been placed on a “Puppy Chow” diet the week before delivery to stimulate milk production.

After delivery the Pups are wormed at the end of the 1st week with Nemex and every week there after for 6 weeks. The Pups are given a 5 way Vaccine at 4 weeks, 6 weeks, and at 10 weeks. This is more than most recommend or do, however he has not lost a Pup in years. The Pups are handled and named early. They are called by name often and have regular interaction with people.(having a child around is a big plus in having people friendly Pups)

At three months the Pups are put on a long line with a Tri-tronics training collar and taught to “Come Here”. This also backgrounds the Pups in the training collar. The long line is tugged and the command to “come here” is given, the pup is pulled forward the 1st time and toned. The second time he is tugged forward and commanded and does not come a light charge is given. This pressure and relief session lasts for no more than 10 minutes at a time and varies Pup to Pup, as the pups have a limited attention span. Generally one or two sessions is all it takes to have the Pups honoring the command and they have learned what the E-collar’s pressure is about and how to get relief. Generally sending a TONE is all that it will take to change a Pups behavior as he progresses, however each Hound is different so some will take more correction than others.

This Primary comand is the most important to Dad, if a Hound won't "Come here" when he is being hunted he is not very useful. He has now learned to get relief from the E-collar coming to the sound of Dad's voice will give that relief. When being hunted the Pups soon learns to equate the sound of the Truck horn to Dad's voice.

The Pups get used to wearing the E-collars and most will wear them for their entire working life. Not because they do not become broke off of “Trash” but to correct the little quirks that all Hounds seem to want to try at some point in their life. (it is better to fix the problem the 1st time it occurs rather than have to wait till the next time hunting if you have remembered to put the E-collar on. Then the Hound might be sensitive to something being different and not commit the error, you think he won’t do it again and leave the E-collar off, then Bam he does it and probably worse).

At 4 months the Pups are put into a rabbit pen (about ¼ acre in size stocked with cottontails). The initial session is usually about three hours in length. Then the sessions are about two hours long and are held 3 times a week for a month or until the Pups start catching the rabbits. This teaches the Pups to use their noses and to begin to honor another Hound.

At 5 months the Pups are taken to a small Fox Pen (about 4 acres in size stocked with 10 or so Grey fox). The Pups are allowed to run 3 hours or so (this is early in the morning as it takes place in late Summer). This is usually for 2 or 3 sessions or until the Pups are running the Fox hard and harking to the other pups that have the game. Pups will learn more about using their noses and start to learn tricks that Game will play on them.

For some reason Hounds will transition from Grey Fox to Bobcat and not want to run the Grey Fox anymore. Dad found this to be the case back in the early 1960s when he had to buy Grey Fox Hounds to turn into Bobcat Hounds. If the Pups do not give up the Greys on their own, generally only a little correction is needed to convince the pups that Bobcat smell better.

Next the Pups are hunted with 1 or 2 retired Hounds who will not pressure the Pups allowing them to make mistakes but be there to straighten out the boo boos. The Pups are given the opportunity to strike from the road or the top of the box along with the old pros. They are allowed to work out the trails and in all aspects are treated like a Pack. The Pups are hunted in this manner for the next 4 to 5 months before being integrated into the main Pack. This allows them to learn how to do “Cathound” things on their own with out having to worry about “keeping up” with the older Hounds. When they are brought into the Pack in this manner the Pups are able to “Contribute” not just “Participate” in the demise of the Ole Shorttail.

(Sometime in the 1st year or so almost every Pup will become “Independent” and try to do something wrong, run trash, not come in, some annoying thing that a little correction with the E-collar will stop)

As I have said in other Posts the Pups keep that moniker till they are two years old when they become “young dogs”. Then if they continue to make the grade at 4 years old they become “Cat Hounds”.

Now comes the hardest part of our Hound world, just about the time all the work you have invested in the Hound is paying off the next two years fly by. Suddenly that Pup is now 6 years old and about to be replaced by the newest generation. (As hard as Dad hunts, by the time a Hound is 6 years old, they are slowing down and if pushed by the advancing younger Hounds they will start doing things that they should not and did not do!) Dad then tries to match the style of the to be retired Hound with one of his friends who do not hunt the 4 to 5 times a week that he does. In most cases these Old Pros have another two to three years of useful life at their retirement Homes!

In their 1st year all the Pups are given the opportunity to ride on top of the Rig. Some become quite comfortable and go on to be Rig Hounds, others are never comfortable ridding on top but excel in other ways and contribute to the team. The Football team analogy again, with each Hound doing something that complements the whole and makes the sum of the parts stronger than the individual. Some Pups at an early age show signs of being “Special” hounds that do all things well. Some do other things better than others and are talented “Roll Players" but become “Solid Hounds”.

Hope this is what you wanted; the main theme is to expose the Pups to Game as often as a person can after "putting a handle" on them. Any well bred Pup that is back grounded properly and hunted hard stands the chance of being a “Cat Hound”!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

Addendum #1. Dad just reminded me that I have left out one of the most important traits that he watches for in his prospective matings...Bidabilaty the desire of a Hound to please his master. This translates into easier to break Hounds who are much more pleaseant to be around. No Hound is born "Deer Broke" but if he is Biddable and wants to please, very little correction wil be needed to keep the Hound on the straight and narrow!

[Dan Edwards]

As I have said in other Posts the Pups keep that moniker till they are two years old when they become “young dogs”. Then if they continue to make the grade at 4 years old they become “Cat Hounds”. Now comes the hardest part of our Hound world, just about the time all the work you have invested in the Hound is paying off the next two years fly by. Suddenly that Pup is now 6 years old and about to be replaced by the newest generation. (As hard as Dad hunts by the time a Hound is 6 they are slowing down and if pushed by the advancing younger Hounds they will start doing things that they should not and did not do!)


Its amazing how much your dad and I see eye to eye at times.

[doghunter]

Great Post. Take it from someone that has lost his line. I had to pretty much start over with my deer dogs and it is very hard to find true hounds men that understand breeding. A computer with genetics loaded in it for each dog could not predict the outcome as well as some of these breeders. (The nick as you called it).

I agree that line breeding and culling hard is the key to any good line. I still have a good line of hog dogs but some of the people I set dogs with are not able to help me any more. And I fear I will lose this line also. The line I use is a cross started in Middle Georgia by a man that I believe could give a college professor in genetics a run for his money. He used my line as an out cross year ago and I have maintained my line and his every since. Talked to him last month and he is in bad health and his son is not interested in continuing the work. I don’t hog hunt like I use to and just don’t use the dogs enough to cull like is needed so I may be done with this line also.

I think some of the problems with getting a trail dog are the competition fox hunts. The dogs they use will run the hair of a fox or coyote but they run through the woods looking for something fresh and pass a lot of game they could have jumped it they had a nose or a willingness to use it. They breed for this because that is what wins the trials. You have to jump fast and then show how you can drive the game usually in 4 hrs.

I am not downing fox competitions I support them and have used fox pens to train my dogs. It just makes you have to be careful when choosing a dog to breed to because if he has some “fox dog” in his back ground he may not reproduce trail dogs if that is what you are looking for.

I hunt different I choose a track of the game I want and I want my dog to stay with that animal if it takes 2 min. or 2 Days to jump, after he jumps I want him to pick his head up and run preferably not swapping game. I had this type of dogs at one time but let it get away from me. And I am very thankful for breeders like Dadsdogboy for keeping up the quality of dogs out there.

Thanks again for putting your post for all to read any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

At some point I think we may need to define Trail dog, track dog, cast dog, and jump dog as I believe they mean different things to different people.

[pegleg]

That was real nice and I appreciate it. in many cases young houndsmen get some pretty weird information and start in thinking a hound is no more a dog then a yeti is and treat them with the same voodoo bs Ideas. You provided a clear and consistent basis for breeding, raising, handling/training and hunting of hounds. I knew you could do it better then most, the gift of communication!! many of the older houndsmen that get it done, have been asked for advice and then been ignored so often they get jaded. They become difficult to decipher. of course in any activity the very best can't always teach or coach others very well. It is odd how houndsmen group into camps who swear one hunter was the best and his way the only one. no one lives long enough to gather all the pertinent information let alone reach the perfect answer to all the questions. I know I get so damn burned out on the computer trying to get through the petty bs and actually learn something positive. I guess the good thing is it doesn't take long to get a clear picture of who they are. The bad thing is it keeps a lot of guys from posting because they don't want to deal with some idiot starting a rant. Like I just did The advantage is it's more interactive then a magazine article, you can ask those nagging questions. problem is most people aren't going to hang their ass out to get chewed on by the ignorant very often. I am glad some are willing for the betterment of our sport.

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

Thanks for the kind words!

Dad is one of the few Bobcat Hunters who has traveled to other areas to see how others play the game (he has run his Hounds and been sucessful in 12 States from the Carolinas to New Mexico). He has always been willing to incorporate new ideas into his style of Hunting. Ex. Tracking in the Florida sand(similar to tracking in the Snow up north), Rigging in the Southeast(most all the other Cathunters said that it would not work), using the E-collar, the Garmin, Line Breeding, etc.

Most Bobcat hunters, (and this is not wrong or bad, just how it is,) are local or regional at best in their Hunting and thinking. They have ways and system that work for them and have worked for generations before them, so why change or look at something new or different!

So many of the Great Bobcat Hunters have never hunted more than 30 or so miles from their home. They hunted with the local Stock of Hounds that were successful in providing Sport and producing Game! So why change or look any further...if it ain't broke don't fix it...seems to be the norm!

The problem is that now there are fewer people raising Hounds for the right reasons and Game is getting harder to find in areas that are harder to Hunt requiring better Hounds.

I have rambled enough for now! Good Running to All!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[DerekE]

I wish I could stay within 30 miles of my house. This week I went 356 miles south to Freer, TX, and hunted two nights. 2 cats the first night, dry run the second night. Then yesterday drove 244 miles northwest to Turkey, TX, and hunted one night. 1 cat treed three times before catching on the ground, cold trailed a second but never got it jumped. Obviously I don't do that all the time but I did this week. If you can stay close to home and hunt all you want consider yourself lucky. You have to want it pretty bad to hunt around here. Sorry to get off topic.

I would love to have one of those rabbit pens and fox pens. Not only would it be great for the pups it would be a blast.
Derek